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What do you guys think are the obstacles to European players suceeding. Is it a case of Asian players just being better, or is it a case of Europeans just being worse?
Will we see more top level europeans in the future yes/no. If not why not?
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+5 thumbs 
actually in the dawn of wc3 the Euros dominated the scene but just the attitude to the esports as a whole here in Europe and in Asia are quite different , til here people consider the pro-gamers as teenagers losing their time playing some freaky games in front of the computer , in Asia they are being considered as normal competitive sportsmen , equal to football players and so on.Tbh I hope in Alternate`s players , they are all already pretty good and they are just 16-18 but with that big scene in China its gonna be hard.....
+0 thumbs
Well everybody ( EU gamers ) doting , Wowing etc ..
+ Ladder mass hackers , lag etc ... this is why they suck @ Wc3 .
Mololy you IS are a dead man w' kick in face with leg lawl !
+ Ladder mass hackers , lag etc ... this is why they suck @ Wc3 .
Mololy you IS are a dead man w' kick in face with leg lawl !
+2 thumbs
theres a totally different attitude towards practicing in europe than in china/korea; tod stated it very often, also hasuobs recently!
In europe nobody wants 10-15 games in a row on the same map against the same race ...
In europe nobody wants 10-15 games in a row on the same map against the same race ...
+1 thumbs
personally i agree, for example i usually play 2-3 games and already tire up, i guess many players do the same and its pity for the players wanting to practise more. And as ladder isnt working so well, you cant mass prac there either.
+3 thumbs
americans are at the true disadvantage
+3 thumbs
Well it is just that computer games are treated differently. As hostile said many people in Europe think that playing computer games is time consuming and worthless. Thats one. Another thing is that the population in Asia is much larger than Europe's, so mathematically the percentage of a good gamer coming from Asia is bigger than the percentage of a good gamer coming from Europe. And i have to disagree with Raider - No, actually in Asia many more people are playing WoW for the simple reason that over there they will get a hero to lvl 70 and then sell it (those are called farmers) , so they would actually make money of the game, even if you are not so intelligent, because as we all know WoW doesn't require neither skills nor thinking to succeed. So yeah, all for all it is just how people look at computer games nowadays in different parts of the world, which makes Asians more successful.
+3 thumbs
You said more people = more good gamers. That's theoretically correct but practically in western countries we have a computer in like 3 of 4 households or more. Guess now how many we find in China. The majority still lives in "poverty" and can not afford a pc or internet. So the percentage of people who can become progamer is at least at the moment not much higher as in western countries.
Another reason why europeans do not succeed is that they do not have the motivation to be a full time gamer due to prejudice of society. Important to know is that an asian gamer in his homecountry ( or eastern europe) can live with a salary of 50-100 Euro/$ /month. A western player could hardly buy food with that money for a month. That's because costs are so different. So for Chinese ppl it might be more attractive to decide for a gaming career than for a "normal" job because they know they can earn a living with that.
Another reason why europeans do not succeed is that they do not have the motivation to be a full time gamer due to prejudice of society. Important to know is that an asian gamer in his homecountry ( or eastern europe) can live with a salary of 50-100 Euro/$ /month. A western player could hardly buy food with that money for a month. That's because costs are so different. So for Chinese ppl it might be more attractive to decide for a gaming career than for a "normal" job because they know they can earn a living with that.
+0 thumbs
haha trust me china has enough computers and enough ppl on internet to be almost practically impossible to play a game china - europe without at least 1-2 sec delay at least. (in peak times).
+1 thumbs
That is quite untrue. In most East European it is unthinkable to live with 100$ monthly. What you are saying is ridiculous. And it is true that in Asia not every household has a computer, but same story was in Bulgaria 7-8 years ago. And you know what people did? Went to play in internet cafes. And we've all seen how big the internet cafes in Asia are. But for the other part you are right. Indeed money in gaming industry are bigger than the average income of money in common jobs in Asia so why not turn your hobby to your profession, right?
+0 thumbs
The euro future is in ud hands. Dowaq + Elfi + Happy
:D
:D
+1 thumbs
from germany not:
players earns enough in eps and from pl teams
so they must not be as good as the other player. they put the minimum of effort into it to get the most money out of it ;P
players earns enough in eps and from pl teams
so they must not be as good as the other player. they put the minimum of effort into it to get the most money out of it ;P
+1 thumbs
its a shame a good gaming country as germany with a nice scene and alot of fans dont have a worldtop wc3 player.
-2 thumbs
Europe has higher living standards. If you want to make a living out of wc3 you have to be the best of the best and win tournaments. How many Europeans are able and willing to do that?
While in China they can live from a relatively low salary, in Korea gaming is accepted enough that they just live with their family and play.
Grubby, Tod and Creo are/were able to compete with the best of the best, maybe some east european players, too. But that's just a handful compared to like 20 world class Koreans and countless numbers of Chinese. It's a matter of numbers.
Maybe if they'd invite more than 2 Europeans along with the 4 Koreans and 8 Chinese players, that would be a good chance/motivation for other Europeans to shine, but those are Chinese tournaments. Which leads us back to the Europe where gaming just isn't accepted enough aka it's not generating enough money yet.
While in China they can live from a relatively low salary, in Korea gaming is accepted enough that they just live with their family and play.
Grubby, Tod and Creo are/were able to compete with the best of the best, maybe some east european players, too. But that's just a handful compared to like 20 world class Koreans and countless numbers of Chinese. It's a matter of numbers.
Maybe if they'd invite more than 2 Europeans along with the 4 Koreans and 8 Chinese players, that would be a good chance/motivation for other Europeans to shine, but those are Chinese tournaments. Which leads us back to the Europe where gaming just isn't accepted enough aka it's not generating enough money yet.
+0 thumbs
Deadman also was one of the these players.. he showed what he's really capable of at KODE5 '06. Back then, Moon was out of shape and he was clearly N1 nightelf. I think if deadman kept playing at this high lvl, he was gonna be the best right now and there was gonna be more top players in Europe
+0 thumbs
Top koreans or chinese live like progamers. People from the rest of the world who put in as much time will reach the same level, as has been proved many times in the past.
Right now there isn't much of a incentive to spend your entire live on wc3 for very uncertain returns.
Wich is why players like creo prefer studying to "pro" gaming.
Also it should be noted that the Korean scene is pretty much dead aswell. The top Koreans have been the same for many years, without a lot of new talent coming trough. Most of them started as progamers when korea still had a active wc3 scene, and continued their high level from that time.
The only truly active wc3 scene is in china atm (thanks to sky winning wcg 2x), wich is why the chinese are dominating atm.
Right now there isn't much of a incentive to spend your entire live on wc3 for very uncertain returns.
Wich is why players like creo prefer studying to "pro" gaming.
Also it should be noted that the Korean scene is pretty much dead aswell. The top Koreans have been the same for many years, without a lot of new talent coming trough. Most of them started as progamers when korea still had a active wc3 scene, and continued their high level from that time.
The only truly active wc3 scene is in china atm (thanks to sky winning wcg 2x), wich is why the chinese are dominating atm.
+0 thumbs
The korean WC3 isn't dead. There're so many players, so many good and new players.. but just the level in Korea is really reall high and with the shining of Moon,ReMinD,SoJu, Lyn and so on is hard to pay attention to players, who compared to them are just amateurs..
+4 thumbs
Europe > Asia !!!
+0 thumbs
I think its pretty hard for europeans to imporve when all there top clans sk, mtw, fnatic, mym go korean :) but then that is the way to win
+1 thumbs
its question about practice
there is simply not the same reward for european players in the tourmanents as it is for asian players
only the ones that reaaaaally love the game or are from somewhere in eastern europe where 200 euros are still big money care enough to practice that much
many chinese can make a living out of playing wc3 in european leagues not a _single_ player from western europe could say the same
there is simply not the same reward for european players in the tourmanents as it is for asian players
only the ones that reaaaaally love the game or are from somewhere in eastern europe where 200 euros are still big money care enough to practice that much
many chinese can make a living out of playing wc3 in european leagues not a _single_ player from western europe could say the same
+1 thumbs
*edit* just so there is no confusion I am not talking about players that have regular salary and can live of it I am saying that noone could live on the price money alone, simply cant be done
+2 thumbs
yeah, and at the same time if you want to compete with the sky, the moon and the stars you need to make playing your daytime job.
conclusion
You have to do it for a living but living from it you ain't
conclusion
You have to do it for a living but living from it you ain't
+1 thumbs
Asians always seem so dedicated to whatever they put their minds to. Of course this is a slightly stereotypical view but there's no smoke without a fire. I think the "they have more people" argument is only useful up to a point; explain sweden's CS success to me please. No, i go with the general consensus that asians are just more willing to try hard and do what it takes, backed up by a more positive image of gaming and computers in general.
As for europe, well we have always been the most successful in more traditional sports. For that reason it is an ongoing struggle for us to get gaming the respect it deserves and so the lifestyle sponsorships which are so common in china and korea have been much slower to come to europe and even america.
As for europe, well we have always been the most successful in more traditional sports. For that reason it is an ongoing struggle for us to get gaming the respect it deserves and so the lifestyle sponsorships which are so common in china and korea have been much slower to come to europe and even america.
+2 thumbs
I'm simplifying a bit, but you get the idea.
+3 thumbs
man in Sweden it gets dark in 4 pm , what besides computer games and drinking u can do ? ;D
+0 thumbs
What happens in June then?
+0 thumbs
I do kind of agree with you hostile actually, but it seems too simple to be the whole reason. Also, isn't alcohol really expensive in scandinavia in general? :P
+0 thumbs
thats why they play CS ! ;D
+1 thumbs
It's only in November and January that it's that dark in Sweden, atm it's very nice weather. In Sweden almost everyone play video and computer games and a normal family might have 3 computers and several consoles. Different countries have different cultures, the interesting question to ask is why is it that gaming is so big in Sweden e.g.? It's probably due to the fact that we like new technology and are fast to embrace it. And when you've established a winning tradition in any aspect whether it's sports or some other field of competition it tends to live on.
+3 thumbs
the single biggest reason why sweden is (was? don't follow cs) dominant in counterstrike is because sweden probably has the best internet in europe from what I have heard. With nearly everyone being able to practice with lan pings from home. Wich is ofcourse a huge advantage when all the big tournaments are played on lan.
-1 thumbs
Everything is expensive in sweden ^^ 1.55euro for 1litre gas ^^ SWEDEN OWNS!!
+3 thumbs
In Korea WC3 is a sport
In China WC3 is a just a game, a lot of boys play it,even girls they play it for a long time
but it is just a game!
In China WC3 is a just a game, a lot of boys play it,even girls they play it for a long time
but it is just a game!
+2 thumbs
China 123,000,000 internet users from 1,314,100,000 people
Korea 33,900,000 internet users from 48,692,000 people
Germany 50,616,000 inet users from 82,431,000 people
Netherlands 10,806,000 inet users from 16,407,000 people
Russia 23,700,000 inet users from 142,893,540 people
Fin 3,286,000 inet users from 5,223,000 people
Bulgaria 2,200,000 inet users from 7,385,367 people
Pol 10,600,000 inet users from 38,536,869 people
My country (Latvia) 1,030,000 inet users (Only Fifa progamers) from 2,274,735 people
Out of these data seems like europe has chance of more progamers than Asia + These are few counties, there are + more in europe !!!
Korea 33,900,000 internet users from 48,692,000 people
Germany 50,616,000 inet users from 82,431,000 people
Netherlands 10,806,000 inet users from 16,407,000 people
Russia 23,700,000 inet users from 142,893,540 people
Fin 3,286,000 inet users from 5,223,000 people
Bulgaria 2,200,000 inet users from 7,385,367 people
Pol 10,600,000 inet users from 38,536,869 people
My country (Latvia) 1,030,000 inet users (Only Fifa progamers) from 2,274,735 people
Out of these data seems like europe has chance of more progamers than Asia + These are few counties, there are + more in europe !!!
+2 thumbs
where did you get this figures from? source?
+1 thumbs
Well yeah and there are + more in Asia too. As for your numbers there are not correct, personally checked most of them. And even if they are, do you think that every one of those internet users will play warcraft 3? Not really, because as we said earlier the different point of view on computer games, makes WC3 more popular in Asia than Europe.
+1 thumbs
Thats like saying China should have most proffesional runners, due to the greater amount of shoes in this country.
Only thing that would make your argument valid would've been if you'd added the percentage of internet users playing wc3, which I do not see as a possible task; Conclusion your argument is unvalid.
No offense at all btw, but I'm not fonding black&white arguments.
Only thing that would make your argument valid would've been if you'd added the percentage of internet users playing wc3, which I do not see as a possible task; Conclusion your argument is unvalid.
No offense at all btw, but I'm not fonding black&white arguments.
+2 thumbs
Asia is giving more importance to eSports and their players are really talented and they practise a lot. Also Europeans practice, but when you will ask to Moon and ToD how much they practise you'll see the difference. Also in Asia eSport is very developed, a lot of people is playing this games, so you have more people to play with, more tournaments, more media and etc.
Deleted
+3 thumbs
What "nooby" has to do with the point the thread starter wanted to make?
+0 thumbs
not really a point there, till they can actually beat nooby they will never be allowed out of europe, titan rob dowaq bro they cant compete with asians. Grubby and Tod are the best europeans no one comes close to them while in china heaps of asians can knock sky out. Don't blame grubby on lack of euro growth because of him and tod creo became one of the best players in the world.
+2 thumbs
MLW if you want to agree with yourself, at least make an effor to hide it. This is just blatantly stupid. At least try to speak like a different person.
Btw have we moved into the 3 digits of the number of your accounts?
Btw have we moved into the 3 digits of the number of your accounts?
+0 thumbs
Btw have we moved from* the 3 digits of the number of your accounts?
+0 thumbs
creo was the best player in the world there is no doubt about that and he came back to prove it once and for all
he dominated everyone sky moon whoever came along.
as I said earlier for koreans and chinese there is a temptation in making your passion for the game your lifelihood because YOU CAN in europe or lets put it this way western and central europe you CANT thus you find more dedicated asian gamers thus you have more of them being good
btw a upside view: what about tennis? why is there only good european/us american players?
same question same stupid debate
he dominated everyone sky moon whoever came along.
as I said earlier for koreans and chinese there is a temptation in making your passion for the game your lifelihood because YOU CAN in europe or lets put it this way western and central europe you CANT thus you find more dedicated asian gamers thus you have more of them being good
btw a upside view: what about tennis? why is there only good european/us american players?
same question same stupid debate
+2 thumbs
"dominated sky" actually I think that the only bo3 that he has won vs Sky was @ the WCG final
stop posting bullshits
stop posting bullshits
+3 thumbs
new account senti?
+0 thumbs
creo beat sky after been inactive that has to speak for sumthing and anyway stop getting all ur accoutns and thumbing urself up lol
+2 thumbs
Sase beats moon 90% of the time (MLW logic) => Sase is the best EU player.
-2 thumbs
I bet he will cry tonight, cuz you proved him that moon is better than SaSe! But still you are the idiot with the statistics xD Man you just fell so low !
+4 thumbs
Hostilepulse is absolutely right with what he's saying. There were some good points in this thread but this is probably the most important point.
In Korea and China it's almost become standart to play computergames like other "sports". You can train a lot and as a result you have a lot of players to train with.
In Europe you have to concentrate more on school and such things while you are still considered to have to reallife when you are playing more than 2 hours a day.
In Korea and China it's almost become standart to play computergames like other "sports". You can train a lot and as a result you have a lot of players to train with.
In Europe you have to concentrate more on school and such things while you are still considered to have to reallife when you are playing more than 2 hours a day.
+4 thumbs
Interesting question would be: Do you prefer the situation in eastern or western countries? Because i think even though we all are gamers and went to lan parties and played like 10h but i think it should not become normality. E-Sport should not mean to play 10h a day and be pro but that's the current situation.
+4 thumbs
I guess the difference is that for other sports like let's take football for example you have to go to the next football ground. If you are playing for lets say 3 hours you are done for a while cause it will get hell of exhausting.
But for most e-sports players it's like getting up at 9 o'clock, walking to the fridge, going to the toilet and start playing. And because it is not exhausting, they will keep playing like for ten hours.
So what I actually wanted to say is that as long as players do have the opportunity to play 10h a day, they will do so to become the best. To compete with those players other players have to play 10h a day as well, cause otherwise they'll never win anything.
I myself enjoy out starcraft and wacraft scene, even though I somtimes get bored by it.
<But for most e-sports players it's like getting up at 9 o'clock, walking to the fridge, going to the toilet and start playing. And because it is not exhausting, they will keep playing like for ten hours.
So what I actually wanted to say is that as long as players do have the opportunity to play 10h a day, they will do so to become the best. To compete with those players other players have to play 10h a day as well, cause otherwise they'll never win anything.
I myself enjoy out starcraft and wacraft scene, even though I somtimes get bored by it.