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Starcraft 2 Beta out!

DiscO-EO-EO-EO wrote:
StarStalker wrote:
FunPlayer wrote:
Lyn was doing great before the patch, not sure about Fly and when his PGL win was, but Fly dominated so hard lately and is also the best orc vs orc and human, he deserves it.
Grubby won like 3? major tournaments since the patch. Ofc he would have won 1 or 2 without a patch, but look at Ud and elf not winning anything.
And yes, he destroyed the balance because he was whining for years, thus allowing his fanboys to blame imba for every map he loses (check any grubby replay on rp.com...), even when lyn was dominating 2008.
Blizzard made 2 huge suggestion topics, they got filled with those retarded change suggestions to staff and dryad XP. Guess why those people cried for elf and human nerfs, while Lyn was 4-0ing Moon? Because they listened to Grubby, and not to the stats and results.


''Me and funplayer'' might be a bit of a stretch. But I am not gonna gonna make the mistake of arguing with a fool twice.

Ye,Im not pretty sure if Fly won PGL before or after the patch but everything else he won later,he was dominating in those two MU you are regarding to after the patch,keyword is after,thus he is the real patchorc.
I agree with you that Bllizard kinda destroyed the game with the patch,orc became really imba,Im not like Schungless to deny that,Im realistic and anyone who denies that orc is imba are morons.But if you look some things from other point of view you come to the idea that in orc-elf MU,since most elf on most maps,except TM goes for Dotts,imo nothing big was changed,staff is important but not so important to change favour from 50-50 to 80-20 like everyone is saying.OK dyards are fucked up,but primary tactics vs orc are dotts.Towers are REALLY fucked up,Bllizard shouldnt have done that or when they did they should also nerf BM.
Im familiar about Blizzards topics,kinda read them partially,but neverthless accusing Grubby for Blizzards mistakes is really out of place.


lol, its a shame that a random tries to argue with me and funplayer, who are obviously one of the most informed scene-prophets regarding wc3. no need to repeat our poust for every NN nubby fanboy crawling out of his cave.

fly has done impacts to orc ( no i wont name them anymore, im tired, search for other posts), he was one of the first beatin sky in 06, while nubby got his ASS CLEANED. he was the best in 09 by far. best of the best (race).
nubby cried like a shitty bitch his whole career through, not havin balls to admit moons simply the better. now, since the patch he hasnt lost a word regarding balance, playing the broken race, still being somewhere at the avarage with mass tours but mass fails.
get your knowledge straight, random.....

[quote]Grubby also played SC2 beta but dosent really have much edge over other wc3 players like hasu/demuslim etc

this sentence owns the fuckin thread and the whole "grubby is no patchorc" discussion.

 

As for Fly...If you actually think that it was the patch that made wc3 what it is today, then he is probably THE patchorc.He obviously benefited the most from the patch, and if you can't see that- this conversation is over.Just someone please explain to me where is the logic in calling a guy who has been,again I repeat,at the top of the top for as long as this game has existed, a patch orc, instead of a guy who's only achievement before the patch was beating Sky :D He beat Sky in 2006????WOW!How much prize money did he get for that?

Grubby was not the only one gettining his ''ass cleaned''(as stupid as this sounds), but it was all orcs getting owned by the ''Sky push'', while grubby,btw,was the person who actually started developing some kind of counter for this first( btw,funplayer,I distinctly remember you agreeing with me on this one).

Fly is a robot...a damn good one too. Too quote Funplayer( and I couldn't agree more): The game on TR of Fly vs Soccer (can't remember which tour,it was streamed on PPLive a couple of months ago) made Fly look even more incompetent than the game against Infi at WCG on the same map(maybe it's not the exact words,but that's pretty much the gist). Fly was in a situation in which he had to adapt to a game that deviated significantly from the cookie-cutter strats twice in a very short time span, and his reaction was sad to say the least.

Lyn is a monster...no question there. Btw, I love how you guys use the ''hasn't invented a single strat'' argument against grubby,but never even think of applying the same thing to Lyn or Fly. But no, you are not fanboys.Not at all. And the worst part is that grubby actually DID invent at least something, while the other 2 have invented, and I cannot emphasize this enough, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

 

Fly won some smaller Chinese tournaments.Those were probably more competitive than Grubby's WSVG win and other "top" finishes.
We agreed that grubby optimated the burrow placement to deal with the Sky push, though I'm no expert on that. But if you take that as "invention" or rather innovation, then what is Fly taking Sh instead of TC to rape the Human before he even reaches the Orc base?

The reason I like Fly is that he has awesome micro, something I just don't see with other players. He also delivers funny and skilled in-game moves. He lacks on the macro/brain side, sure, but at least he's not 100% Blade ensnare rightclick when it comes to battle.
And he was the best in orc mirror and vs Human before the patch. You have a point, saying Fly profited most from the patch, but you have to draw the patchorc line somewhere, and excluding the two best Orcs Lyn and Fly is where I see that line. Lyn even lost cause of the patch because there are so many other orcs he has to share the prize money with lol.

 

gwt_ds_carw wrote:

Lyn is a monster...no question there. Btw, I love how you guys use the ''hasn't invented a single strat'' argument against grubby,but never even think of applying the same thing to Lyn or Fly. But no, you are not fanboys.Not at all. And the worst part is that grubby actually DID invent at least something, while the other 2 have invented, and I cannot emphasize this enough, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

lol why ur ignoring facts, damn shitkid????
we have counted numerous times what fly and lyn did invent... heard of hhs? orc t3? sws vs ud? sh vs hu? fs-naga-wyvs vs hu? and so on...
you need to study wc3 before you can dare to talk with me and fp, you clueless 09-moron...

 

FunPlayer wrote:
Fly won some smaller Chinese tournaments.Those were probably more competitive than Grubby's WSVG win and other "top" finishes.
We agreed that grubby optimated the burrow placement to deal with the Sky push, though I'm no expert on that. But if you take that as "invention" or rather innovation, then what is Fly taking Sh instead of TC to rape the Human before he even reaches the Orc base?

The reason I like Fly is that he has awesome micro, something I just don't see with other players. He also delivers funny and skilled in-game moves. He lacks on the macro/brain side, sure, but at least he's not 100% Blade ensnare rightclick when it comes to battle.
And he was the best in orc mirror and vs Human before the patch. You have a point, saying Fly profited most from the patch, but you have to draw the patchorc line somewhere, and excluding the two best Orcs Lyn and Fly is where I see that line. Lyn even lost cause of the patch because there are so many other orcs he has to share the prize money with lol.


Well, if you wanna talk about the original ''sky push'', it used to be a tech with 3 farms(which is to say as fast as the orc's),pick up the BeM at the tavern, go cancel t2 buildings while getting sanctums powerbuilt by 2 peasants each and then push with the first two sorceress' with ivory towers and militia. With slow and a decent amount melee/piercing dmg,there was not much left for the orc to do with 4 grunts and 2 heroes.
What I'm trying to say is that with the original ''sky push'', your argument about Fly raping the human with the SH before he even reaches the orc base doesn't seem plausible. Besides, even though I can't be 100% sure, I highly doubt that Fly was the one that started using the SH as a second hero first in this MU.

 

gwt_ds_carw wrote:
FunPlayer wrote:
Fly won some smaller Chinese tournaments.Those were probably more competitive than Grubby's WSVG win and other "top" finishes.
We agreed that grubby optimated the burrow placement to deal with the Sky push, though I'm no expert on that. But if you take that as "invention" or rather innovation, then what is Fly taking Sh instead of TC to rape the Human before he even reaches the Orc base?

The reason I like Fly is that he has awesome micro, something I just don't see with other players. He also delivers funny and skilled in-game moves. He lacks on the macro/brain side, sure, but at least he's not 100% Blade ensnare rightclick when it comes to battle.
And he was the best in orc mirror and vs Human before the patch. You have a point, saying Fly profited most from the patch, but you have to draw the patchorc line somewhere, and excluding the two best Orcs Lyn and Fly is where I see that line. Lyn even lost cause of the patch because there are so many other orcs he has to share the prize money with lol.


Well, if you wanna talk about the original ''sky push'', it used to be a tech with 3 farms(which is to say as fast as the orc's),pick up the BeM at the tavern, go cancel t2 buildings while getting sanctums powerbuilt by 2 peasants each and then push with the first two sorceress' with ivory towers and militia. With slow and a decent amount melee/piercing dmg,there was not much left for the orc to do with 4 grunts and 2 heroes.
What I'm trying to say is that with the original ''sky push'', your argument about Fly raping the human with the SH before he even reaches the orc base doesn't seem plausible. Besides, even though I can't be 100% sure, I highly doubt that Fly was the one that started using the SH as a second hero first in this MU.

lol, your clueless, all your arguements are built up on speculation.
human starts t2 tech with 24 supply which equals 2 farms. but its still not faster than orc. this push isnt powerfull without am lvl3. fly WAS the first delayin am lvl3 and herofocusin the am with bm-hex-peons. nubby still loses vs the sky-push when played.

 

Wtf, the forum is totally bugged

 

DiscO-EO-EO-EO wrote:
gwt_ds_carw wrote:
FunPlayer wrote:
Fly won some smaller Chinese tournaments.Those were probably more competitive than Grubby's WSVG win and other "top" finishes.
We agreed that grubby optimated the burrow placement to deal with the Sky push, though I'm no expert on that. But if you take that as "invention" or rather innovation, then what is Fly taking Sh instead of TC to rape the Human before he even reaches the Orc base?

The reason I like Fly is that he has awesome micro, something I just don't see with other players. He also delivers funny and skilled in-game moves. He lacks on the macro/brain side, sure, but at least he's not 100% Blade ensnare rightclick when it comes to battle.
And he was the best in orc mirror and vs Human before the patch. You have a point, saying Fly profited most from the patch, but you have to draw the patchorc line somewhere, and excluding the two best Orcs Lyn and Fly is where I see that line. Lyn even lost cause of the patch because there are so many other orcs he has to share the prize money with lol.


Well, if you wanna talk about the original ''sky push'', it used to be a tech with 3 farms(which is to say as fast as the orc's),pick up the BeM at the tavern, go cancel t2 buildings while getting sanctums powerbuilt by 2 peasants each and then push with the first two sorceress' with ivory towers and militia. With slow and a decent amount melee/piercing dmg,there was not much left for the orc to do with 4 grunts and 2 heroes.
What I'm trying to say is that with the original ''sky push'', your argument about Fly raping the human with the SH before he even reaches the orc base doesn't seem plausible. Besides, even though I can't be 100% sure, I highly doubt that Fly was the one that started using the SH as a second hero first in this MU.

lol, your clueless, all your arguements are built up on speculation.
human starts t2 tech with 24 supply which equals 2 farms. but its still not faster than orc. this push isnt powerfull without am lvl3. fly WAS the first delayin am lvl3 and herofocusin the am with bm-hex-peons. nubby still loses vs the sky-push when played.


My bad,it is indeed 2 farms,the rest is all in place.

HHs??????The one-hit-wonder strat that worked on PI simply cuz moon played rly stupid?
But yeah,you're right...Fly and Lyn are the first orcs ever to tech to t3.Get real.
SH vs HU? And who invented that? FS+naga+wyvs?Are you serious? That's got to be one of the oldest strats ever.
You've proved just how big an expert you are...on several ocassions.

Oh, and do me a favour...stop licking FunPlayer's ass

 

Btw, ''as fast as orc's'' means they tech at the same time...not that the human tech is faster

 

Actually Moon didnt invent the dott startegy it was me, I used it several times, mainly when I was playing vs computer though, so he didnt actually invent it, tbh I had a friend who used it aswell it is one of the oldest starts in the game imo.

 

Whoever says Starcraft requiresless micro than Warcraft 3 are fucking idiots.

Try microing mutas, 200 food army, workers without auto gather, positioning etc...

 

matthew-manhorn wrote:
Whoever says Starcraft requiresless micro than Warcraft 3 are fucking idiots.

Try microing mutas, 200 food army, workers without auto gather, positioning etc...


First of all you ignorant bitch, rarely there is a fight of 200 food armies. Second of all what is there to micro when you cannot either heal or retreat in time just because your unit has a low hp by default and it dies with 2 hits. Not to mention that it is far more important in SC too look after each one of your exes than to care about 2-3 units that will eventually be killed and they won't give exp to someone, so it doesn't matter that much as it does in WC for example. "fucking idiot"

 

well bitches

at the end the prize money every single player won through his titles remains as the best criterion to say how successful or good he was/is

if we take a look at that moon is the number one grubby the number two and sky third now go cry me a river bitches that's how it is
there is only one orc who was able to get top 3 placements and major tournament wins from 2003/2004 till today (same thing someone could say about elfs) and those guys are clearly no patch abusers :D

 

First Maphack for the Beta:
http://skillhackers.com/forums/thread312.html

:)

 

hawkii wrote:
First Maphack for the Beta:
http://skillhackers.com/forums/thread312.html

:)


nolifers like you support those people. nothing else in life, no perspective, spending money on pc-hardware and hacks - nothing else. pls get lost, ugly scumbag :)

 

I want to see the noobs who buy 300$ Beta keys on ebay just to use an 10000% unsafe mh to get their keys banned.

 

No, I don't support those people. o_O I just think it's amazing that the first hack is out just a couple of days after the beta is out. :)

 


draco>u

 

huma wrote:
draco>u


btw is there a website on which we can find these results?

 

huma wrote:
draco>u


draco is terrible, spent 6 months in korea with ogn sparkyz and didnt improve at all

 

huma wrote:
huma wrote:
draco>u


btw is there a website on which we can find these results?


http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=113848

http://www.esportsfrance.com/actualites/21055/

should give you some insight, there is no other way for even beta users to check stats other than their own division (far as I know).

 

Demu is starcraft 2 warcraft user friendly?

 

DiscO-EO-EO-EO wrote:
gwt_ds_carw wrote:

Lyn is a monster...no question there. Btw, I love how you guys use the ''hasn't invented a single strat'' argument against grubby,but never even think of applying the same thing to Lyn or Fly. But no, you are not fanboys.Not at all. And the worst part is that grubby actually DID invent at least something, while the other 2 have invented, and I cannot emphasize this enough, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

lol why ur ignoring facts, damn shitkid????
we have counted numerous times what fly and lyn did invent... heard of hhs? orc t3? sws vs ud? sh vs hu? fs-naga-wyvs vs hu? and so on...
you need to study wc3 before you can dare to talk with me and fp, you clueless 09-moron...


It was Grubby who invented fs-naga-wyvs you retard hahaha :D I've only seen Grubby do that strat vs Sky, and I've never seen Lyn or Fly do that, ever.

 

Grubby is most famous for his lusted taurens and bashing undeads and winning tours against undeads

 

StenGahoe wrote:
DiscO-EO-EO-EO wrote:
gwt_ds_carw wrote:

Lyn is a monster...no question there. Btw, I love how you guys use the ''hasn't invented a single strat'' argument against grubby,but never even think of applying the same thing to Lyn or Fly. But no, you are not fanboys.Not at all. And the worst part is that grubby actually DID invent at least something, while the other 2 have invented, and I cannot emphasize this enough, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

lol why ur ignoring facts, damn shitkid????
we have counted numerous times what fly and lyn did invent... heard of hhs? orc t3? sws vs ud? sh vs hu? fs-naga-wyvs vs hu? and so on...
you need to study wc3 before you can dare to talk with me and fp, you clueless 09-moron...


It was Grubby who invented fs-naga-wyvs you retard hahaha :D I've only seen Grubby do that strat vs Sky, and I've never seen Lyn or Fly do that, ever.

Why am I not surprised the "Starcraft 2 Beta out"-Thread turns into a thread about Grubby? It's so hilarious. :D No one talking about Moon yet? Well, well...

 

hawkii wrote:
StenGahoe wrote:
DiscO-EO-EO-EO wrote:
gwt_ds_carw wrote:

Lyn is a monster...no question there. Btw, I love how you guys use the ''hasn't invented a single strat'' argument against grubby,but never even think of applying the same thing to Lyn or Fly. But no, you are not fanboys.Not at all. And the worst part is that grubby actually DID invent at least something, while the other 2 have invented, and I cannot emphasize this enough, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

lol why ur ignoring facts, damn shitkid????
we have counted numerous times what fly and lyn did invent... heard of hhs? orc t3? sws vs ud? sh vs hu? fs-naga-wyvs vs hu? and so on...
you need to study wc3 before you can dare to talk with me and fp, you clueless 09-moron...


It was Grubby who invented fs-naga-wyvs you retard hahaha :D I've only seen Grubby do that strat vs Sky, and I've never seen Lyn or Fly do that, ever.

Why am I not surprised the "Starcraft 2 Beta out"-Thread turns into a thread about Grubby? It's so hilarious. :D No one talking about Moon yet? Well, well...


That's cuz some people hate grubby more than others like moon...how sad is that.

 

StenGahoe wrote:
DiscO-EO-EO-EO wrote:
gwt_ds_carw wrote:

Lyn is a monster...no question there. Btw, I love how you guys use the ''hasn't invented a single strat'' argument against grubby,but never even think of applying the same thing to Lyn or Fly. But no, you are not fanboys.Not at all. And the worst part is that grubby actually DID invent at least something, while the other 2 have invented, and I cannot emphasize this enough, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

lol why ur ignoring facts, damn shitkid????
we have counted numerous times what fly and lyn did invent... heard of hhs? orc t3? sws vs ud? sh vs hu? fs-naga-wyvs vs hu? and so on...
you need to study wc3 before you can dare to talk with me and fp, you clueless 09-moron...


It was Grubby who invented fs-naga-wyvs you retard hahaha :D I've only seen Grubby do that strat vs Sky, and I've never seen Lyn or Fly do that, ever.


uh no, it was either farseer or dayfly who used it first on TR in a korean broadcasted match. That was in 2004, so you failed, sorry :(

 


senar wrote:
StenGahoe wrote:
DiscO-EO-EO-EO wrote:
gwt_ds_carw wrote:

Lyn is a monster...no question there. Btw, I love how you guys use the ''hasn't invented a single strat'' argument against grubby,but never even think of applying the same thing to Lyn or Fly. But no, you are not fanboys.Not at all. And the worst part is that grubby actually DID invent at least something, while the other 2 have invented, and I cannot emphasize this enough, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

lol why ur ignoring facts, damn shitkid????
we have counted numerous times what fly and lyn did invent... heard of hhs? orc t3? sws vs ud? sh vs hu? fs-naga-wyvs vs hu? and so on...
you need to study wc3 before you can dare to talk with me and fp, you clueless 09-moron...


It was Grubby who invented fs-naga-wyvs you retard hahaha :D I've only seen Grubby do that strat vs Sky, and I've never seen Lyn or Fly do that, ever.


uh no, it was either farseer or dayfly who used it first on TR in a korean broadcasted match. That was in 2004, so you failed, sorry :(

whats also funny, he prolly is talkin about grubbys pgl-match in 07, it was nubbys first mapwin vs sky since weg3 in 05, funny that LYN used the exact same strat 2-3 weeks before that game to win sky. that was the reason why grubby played it in that game, and eventualy won that game (wasnt that important anyway, pregroup bo1 in pgl lol).

 

DiscO-EO-EO-EO wrote:
senar wrote:
StenGahoe wrote:
DiscO-EO-EO-EO wrote:
gwt_ds_carw wrote:

Lyn is a monster...no question there. Btw, I love how you guys use the ''hasn't invented a single strat'' argument against grubby,but never even think of applying the same thing to Lyn or Fly. But no, you are not fanboys.Not at all. And the worst part is that grubby actually DID invent at least something, while the other 2 have invented, and I cannot emphasize this enough, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

lol why ur ignoring facts, damn shitkid????
we have counted numerous times what fly and lyn did invent... heard of hhs? orc t3? sws vs ud? sh vs hu? fs-naga-wyvs vs hu? and so on...
you need to study wc3 before you can dare to talk with me and fp, you clueless 09-moron...


It was Grubby who invented fs-naga-wyvs you retard hahaha :D I've only seen Grubby do that strat vs Sky, and I've never seen Lyn or Fly do that, ever.


uh no, it was either farseer or dayfly who used it first on TR in a korean broadcasted match. That was in 2004, so you failed, sorry :(

whats also funny, he prolly is talkin about grubbys pgl-match in 07, it was nubbys first mapwin vs sky since weg3 in 05, funny that LYN used the exact same strat 2-3 weeks before that game to win sky. that was the reason why grubby played it in that game, and eventualy won that game (wasnt that important anyway, pregroup bo1 in pgl lol).


Yeah,that is funny. Then why is it not funny when Lyn copies a strat? Cuz the fs/naga + wyvs has been used since the dawn ot TFT, and the first player I saw using it was Farseer,not Fly or Lyn

 



GG.ToD??? :D That was in...2008,right? :) That was not the first time this strat was used. Far from it :D
Btw, I think I remember that game, and if memory serves, ToD won the game

 

gwt: There are no Lyn fanboys though, that claim their idol to be creative when he's not.
Even when I say Fly is creative and invented things, it's all relative because he's still an Orc.

And you said "I've never seen Lyn or Fly do that, ever." So no matter when or who won, lyn used it :P

 

senar wrote:
StenGahoe wrote:
DiscO-EO-EO-EO wrote:
gwt_ds_carw wrote:

Lyn is a monster...no question there. Btw, I love how you guys use the ''hasn't invented a single strat'' argument against grubby,but never even think of applying the same thing to Lyn or Fly. But no, you are not fanboys.Not at all. And the worst part is that grubby actually DID invent at least something, while the other 2 have invented, and I cannot emphasize this enough, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING

lol why ur ignoring facts, damn shitkid????
we have counted numerous times what fly and lyn did invent... heard of hhs? orc t3? sws vs ud? sh vs hu? fs-naga-wyvs vs hu? and so on...
you need to study wc3 before you can dare to talk with me and fp, you clueless 09-moron...


It was Grubby who invented fs-naga-wyvs you retard hahaha :D I've only seen Grubby do that strat vs Sky, and I've never seen Lyn or Fly do that, ever.


uh no, it was either farseer or dayfly who used it first on TR in a korean broadcasted match. That was in 2004, so you failed, sorry :(


well i didnt know that, i saw it the first time when Grubby did FS-Naga-Wyvs vs Sky. So I thought it was Grubby who invented it.

 

FunPlayer wrote:
gwt: There are no Lyn fanboys though, that claim their idol to be creative when he's not.
Even when I say Fly is creative and invented things, it's all relative because he's still an Orc.

And you said "I've never seen Lyn or Fly do that, ever." So no matter when or who won, lyn used it :P


Please show me the post where I said that. I'm pretty sure you took it out of context :)

About the fanboys- I beg to differ. This guy disco is your first example.''we have counted numerous times what fly and lyn did invent... heard of hhs? orc t3? sws vs ud? sh vs hu? fs-naga-wyvs vs hu? and so on...''
And I don't know which scenario is worse : his actually believing this is true, or just lying his ass off in hope that no1 here would realize it. I found the part about ''orc t3'' very amuzing btw :)

The point is Lyn didn't ''invent'' it. Seeing smbdy else do it, then repeating it doesn't make you the inventor( if that wans't clear enough) :)

 

gwt_ds_carw wrote:


GG.ToD??? :D That was in...2008,right? :) That was not the first time this strat was used. Far from it :D
Btw, I think I remember that game, and if memory serves, ToD won the game


StenGahoe said he never ever saw Lyn and/or fly using that strat, and i gave him a link. Did i say lyn was the first progamer to use this strat ? I even said, one post earlier, that farseer or dayfly was the original user -_- btw yeah tod won it, lyn harassed tod's base like crazy and tod decided to level up his mk instead of tp'ing ... once he got lvl5 -> tp and mass bolts, lyn typed out gg

 

My last sentence lacks "Stengahoe", sorry.

And as i said, Orc inventions and thus orc "inventors" has to be put into perspective that Orc simply is a dumb race (for dumb people, but that's another issue). So if the Grubby fanboys hail him as innovative and what not and can't name a strategy he invented, we show that other Orc pros at least invented or "changed" stuff, especially stuff that the fanboys attribute to Grubby.

 

FunWhiner = Grubby-Fanboy no.2 - right after his friend Disco/MLW. Have a nice dream about me and Grubby. ;) I'll not be here the next couple of days. But I will answer you all questions after that. Hope you can live without me. :D

 

''Have a nice dream about me and Grubby''??? :D

 

gwt_ds_carw wrote:
''Have a nice dream about me and Grubby''??? :D


The way he behaves, I doubt he'll survive a few days without the wrong impression that anybody here cares about what he does.

But tell us more about your llife when you get back, hawki. You seem to need people to talk.

 


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