quote sucked sry ^^

WEM 2006 semis vs moon dh surround with 4 grunts at his own base while harassing moons base with bm ... or 3 grunts surround vs check at tr

why are you even quoting me? i did say "moon invented a lot of stuff", but for you again, in moons games i can see a lot of training with certain strategy, while in grubbys games i can see a lot of experience and adaptation, that was what i meant, its clear now?
add ted, he invented the most yet strongest thing agains orc, and that was frost armor, tower rush with lich was also good, but he is far from undead legends like the fiend master sweet or ghoul machine fov
and about undead casters, i said it way before ted even used casters, that they are powerful enought for using them in MU against orc, but all undeads i knowed in the past, except some top undeads flamed about it, how weak it is ... and never tryed
also pipinka (one of the strongest slovakian players back in 2005/2006) played fiend/banshee combo back then, not to mention an old friend of mine, who got 80 apm and could win with A move thx to his own strategy with fast tech and undead casters in 2004/2005 on bnet against 40lvl above ladder orcs
and the last thing, ted isnt even close to pass grubby, never ever, grubby is overall one of the best, he got ability to win a lost game, where nobody else could make it, and if i can add that he is one of the top3 players with most achievements (with moon and sky), one of the top3 random players (remind and retired deadman), and one of the best 2v2 players this game ever had

LOL made my week. as if surrounding with 4 grunts is something rare^^xD you see that in practically every toporc game, even in ladder it happens so often... a surround worth mentioning would be sweets double surround, but not surrounding with grunts aka collision size of tanks...
theres simply nothing grubby did special in wc3, he didnt invent shit, his moves were never special... look at his skill movies, all are poor and easy to reproduce. surrounding with tc stomps, speedscrolls or ensnares... chainwaving casters or dotts. cmon he isnt even close to a genius like moon, his only diversity was him being orc back than, but since lyn got stronger he even lost that. now he is a totally replaceable patchorc...

Noobei got owned?

yeah you are right surroundings with ghuls who got the dk aura are much more difficult than surrounding a dh which is controlled by moon without raiders, sh, tc, or speedscroll near and you you aren't seeing it in any orc game you guys just don't like it because it was against moon, thats also visionable because you just picked the surround against moon and left check alone^^

sweets doublesurround was more entertaining but also more predictable as grubbys surround which came out of nowhere but how can someone know such stuff who has just seen the youtube vid of sweet and never watched the replays ....

also it was about moves not special strategies or inventings...but it's easier to talk everything bad instead of admitting that some things really were nice, maybe you should use the next week to work on your text apprehensions :)
moon had lots of great moves, entertaining moves, more than any other pro but he isn't the only one who did memorable stuff

Flash moves aren't what make a great WC3 player. They make a great WC3 movie. Just look what Grubby did for orc base design. It might seem like a slight thing but you've all seen what happens when a badly-designed orc base gets burrow-raided.

A grunt surround is hardly what I'd call a "flash move" (nice word btw, it fits what I'm talking about).
Who invented the Blademaster using windwalk to free a surrounded unit? That's something worthy. I know some people complain how that it's a bug and abuse and imba and what not, but off all things it's what makes wc3 intense. Look where all the whining about "bugs" and "imba" got us, with staff "fixed", every orc vs ne game is the same nowadays.
I somewhat agree with cimo that Moon uses given strategies and tries to force them onto his opponent while Grubby is more adaptive. It's a matter of the race probably. But Moon's "slump" is caused mostly by that cursed staff nerf, taking away an instrument of skill, balance and great entertainment and elf's best chance to leave their base before hitting tier3. Grrrrr, makes me angry just thinking about it, intentionally dumbing down the game like that...

Staff had to be fixed because it was imbalanced. There were so many games where others played much better but elf won just because of this staff...

Good work by blizzard!

I don't know any. But there were so many games where some Ud or Orc blinldy relied on hero focus and god like staff usage and swapping was the only thing that made the elf the deserved winner.
But hooray for rightclcik + afk nowadays.

being adaptive isnt what makes nubby a special player, his opponent often is the more creative one so he has to adapt... if he would try something new and surprising, the other one would have to adapt... but who cares anyway, he plays the same shit since roc, nowadays this shit is more effective than ever before thx to patch... adaptive my ass...

Actually, the staff nerf was a bad thing. Elf did need nerfing at the time imo, but the staff didn't help. Now elves just buy 2, which takes half the micro of swapping 1... obviously.

and you should know that make a surround with bigger units its much more difficult that with smaller one, it isnt rare to see a surround with ghouls or footies, but how about surround with kodos? katas? dotc? abos? mgs? etc? sweet surround was about 20 small and fast moving units and two heroes, that surround was a must, what else could he do in that situation ?
also that grubby didnt invent a shit is pure crap from your head, he inspired a lot of orcs and set the stable orc background for this game, he makes orc interesting to watch, thats the reason why he got so many fans

The real question would be: How often do you see a Blademaster getting surrounded?

LoL'd. The reason why you don't see surrounds with " kodos? katas? dotc? abos? mgs?" is that those units are a)never played(mgs,docs,katas), b) only played in lategame and c) are all slow moving units.
While for example gouls are faster units played in larger amounts throughout the whole game.

First of all it wasn't really a nerf but a buxfix! Now the elf has to spend more money into buying 2 staffs which changes the timings and hence the outcome of a certain percentage of matches. So it was a good thing imo.

It s not to much the money but the cooldown on the second one, plus the fact you have to return to your shop to get it...

a)sure, mgs arent played often, but still, surround with that kind of unit is a way more harder then with footies,i would say nearly impossible (dotc = druid of the claw aka bears? played in most of the NE MU)
b) i dont see the point when it is played in late game or mid game or early game, explain
c) i wouldnt say that dotc are so slow like the other ones, ghouls(at beggining without aura) or foties arent any faster, or another small units like archers, casters etc.
or abominations with aura are fast enough and the surround is harder too

my advice, get some experience with that kind of surrounds

Probably gotta spend that 150gold on a healing potion vs blademaster though anyway AMIRITE?! ;D

your retarded as shit, talkin with you i a pure waste.
nubby got the most fans cuz he is euro, not playstyle or smthn, any european has lots of fanboys compared to what they do in the game. be it creo, tod, nubby, deadman, hot etc. but those minor things havent reached you in your cave behind new zealand..

retarded as shit my ass, fart gay
grubby got so many fans thx to his achievements and entertaining playstyle, he is living legend, not to mention he got a lot of fans in china (like ToD) you fucktard
just dig yourself you ugly shit
:)

DowaQ: Orc is the best race for sure. They don't admit it, they are just blind to not understand it. Whoever plays Orc gets a chance to become a professional player if he puts enough time in it. Blizzard must weaken the orcs if there shall be some improvements. I think it's sad to know that an orc will win a tournament before it even started.

Disgust... I mean: discuss!

He might've had this game in his head when he said that:

http://www.sk-gaming.com/photo/152536

He must be joking. Otherwise you can give a shit about his "professional" opinion. It's one thing to discuss orc's advantages in certain matchups on a facts based level like we do. But what he says is out of the blue.

Show me these people who play orc and get a chance to become professional players. The orc star players are the same they were 1 or 2 years ago. Lucifron is a Rookie if you want so but his super aggressive playstyle against nightelf changed this matchup. It was he who came up with burrowrushing and very early nelf harrasment, which now became part of the whole mu.

" I think it's sad to know that an orc will win a tournament before it even started."

What a b/s. If you read the shit he wrote, don't bother asking yourself why undead dies.

isiidsisd?

Playing devil's advocate, are we?
Orc wins basically all tournaments, so it's true what he says. And while playing Orc doesn't automatically make you a pro, you can just look at the horde of new semi-pros. They all play Orc. Cash, Rob, Naama, even the Chinese like Future and Wulin. New Humans? None. New Undeads? Vortix? Elfs? Maybe that moonfans guy.

rob? new semipro? http://www.wcreplays.com/page.php?section=interviews&id=50 january 2006, thx
i have seen naama somewhere too, cash, future or wulin arent playing this game like one month, if you know only leagues like w3cl or ngl and only one weekly zotac cup, that just dont mean this guys comes from nowhere

but i agree that these guys got better results thx to BM usage, but this just dont give them a chance to win an international tournament or to be the among the best players in the world

Rob retired and came back, which makes him "new" or a patchorc or whatever. Future and Wulin were "those Orcs that show up and Chinese qualifier X for tournament Alpha but never make it". Comes 1.22 and they own wc3l. Patchorcs.

And what kind of argument is that supposed to be "doesn't make them win international tournaments". It just makes them a level or 2 better than they are supposed to be, not world elite. Which still makes the world elite orcs a level or 2 above the other world class players, which amkes them win international tournaments, duh.

orcs are just more creative!

like it matter if he retired and came back, i havent seen him doing better then before --"
i wasnt sure about these chineese orcs you mentioned, thats why i rather checked their log on sk-gaming
so, future got good results in mirror, beating fly few times, but couldnt do better in other MUs, that was before and it never changed, even Tresh beat him 2-0 in w3cl...
wulin personal results havent changed so far, he still plays like he used to, the question is, does he play w3cl this season? last season colorful got owned pretty hard, they won only vs nGt
these guys arent doing better, arent owning tournaments, arent owning team leagues so, are we at ghost hunt ?

nope they just hunt invisible blademasters!

Are wc3l stats even in the Sk records? Fact is they qualified for and played wc3l with dual orc and were thus one of quite a few teams responsible for mass orc mirrors.
And please, we have been through this. Just because some random Orc who was trash before is now slightly better trash, doesn't mean that him being trash makes Orc balanced. Why are you even arguing, you say yourself Orc is imbalanced, the results show orc is the most imbalanced race we ever had in wc3.
Any given orc pro is suddenly better than before, and if they aren't it's cause other Orcs are even better than them. Why don't you show me an Orc that actually got worse since the patch? Or retired for that matter.

yes, wc3l got records in sk site
http://www.sk-gaming.com/match/10848
http://www.sk-gaming.com/match/10843
http://www.sk-gaming.com/match/10840
i wouldnt say that it was hard to qualify, nothing to do with orc
"And please, we have been through this. Just because some random Orc who was trash before is now slightly better trash, doesn't mean that him being trash makes Orc balanced." in other hand it doesnt make orc imbalanced
i said myself that Blademaster is imbalanced, not that orc is imbalanced
the results show that the most imbalanced thing in w3 is blademaster right now, not that orc is the most imbalanced race we ever have (elfs dominated this scene much more longer then orcs right now)
i dissagree that any orc i better then before, mb they can surrprise in one or two events, but they just cant keep up with other oldschool pros
orcs that arent doing better, get worse or retired: kiwikaki, knoff, dark, DNA, eric, fivestar, ciara, rotterdam, p1nke, aca, rob, thrall, sting, ghost, minhyuk, future and wulin
i didnt want to talk about the top orcs but: weaker is lyn, who and lucifron, fly and focus are quite unstable in results (as allways), like and grubby did better

Future has better training environment and is definitely doing better than when he was in colorful according to WE.Pepsi.King the manager

so is Wulin who is now playing for another chinese proteam

if these two get a chance to play international tours you would see they are not that far from the so called tier-1 orc's skill level

I didn't mean wc3l overall results, but the individual performance. Like if Moon gets matched vs Grubby in wc3l, it doesn't show up in their "last matches against opponent" and doesn't count for the racial stats cause it's not a 1on1 match.

In fact, if he's better trash than before it makes Orc imbalanced. And maybe one day you'll see how stupid it is to say "blademaster is imba, orc is not". Ever had basic maths at school? If Blademaster = imba, and Blademaster € Orc, then Orc = imba.

Good job listing lots of Orcs that either quit before the patch, are still doing fine like Eric or Aca, or were even on a roll thx to the patch, like Knoff, Ciara (getting hired with people like Hot, remind etc. on the market, qualifying for WCG) etc.
As I said, the bulk of Orcs performing better than before is hard to see when they usually play in minor leagues like WCIP, but the stats don't lie, and neither does the numbers of orcs that qualified for WCG. Like what, half the players there were Orc?

As for the top Orcs, apply this "and if they aren't it's cause other Orcs are even better than them". Goes for Lyn above all, Who is suddenly better than pretty much all other Koreans except Moon and Lyn, Fly being unstable... yeah, you have to show off your stupidity in every post.

"the results show that the most imbalanced thing in w3 is blademaster right now, not that orc is the most imbalanced race we ever have (elfs dominated this scene much more longer then orcs right now)"

Use your brain for once. We suffered through TWO whole years of orc winning 95% of all tournaments. Not even elf in 1.12, 1.14, 1.17 or 1.21 dominated for that long and so hard. Which makes Orc the biggest imbalance ever.

Each exageration you make gives one more argument to your ennemies.
Ofc Orc is imba, ofc this guy is biased like HELL, but you wouldn't convince anyone by telling them to "use their brains" and state that the Orcs win 19 tournaments out of 20.

The Orc standard army is the best, the Orc race wins 70% of the tournaments.
Truth is enough.

I'm just saying the truth. 70% might be accurate if you include Zotac Cups, but those don't mean much if the best don't even play it and maybe 2 different guys win the thing all the time.
Other than that, we have Infi winning WCG, Sky won some other smaller thing, I think. All others went to Orc. 70% doesn't cover that, 90%+ is more like it.

one passive skill on one unit with certain item setup doesnt make the whole race imbalanced --", if someone would play fs+tc what would it be ? it is the race imbalanced again? oh wait .... there is no bm with claws hmm.... hard question, isnt it ?
about their personal records, i checked their 1v1 records and i checked the team records with their line up in each match as well, i didnt see anything that would prove your theory
eric is doing maybe fine, but his results havent improved, he get just worse
aca is so good that even i could beat him in mirror with fs
knoff, ciara or roll thx to patch? hahahahahahahaha :D
the stats dont lie? do you know how were the stats at the beggining? it was the same +-1 or 2% with each race
"In fact, if he's better trash than before it makes Orc imbalanced." and i though it just matter of natural improvement, but no, its IMBALANCE! now i got it

Please, you're trying to argue semantics here in order to make the imbalance look less severe. (careful, that rhymed)
First off, it'shard to find an orc not playing Blademaster. 2nd, assume we're 3 years in the past and you cry about elf, Dh,staff, cyclone imba and I say "Dh, staff, cyclone might be imba, but elf is not". Man that would make me look stupid, right?
Too bad we're in the present and you're the one looking stupid. Another example: Blademaster wouldn't be imbalanced if ensnare was drastically nerfed or removed. Now is ensnare part of orc? Is the Blademaster part of orc? Is orc imba? Triple yes.

What are you even talking about, Eric was bottom of the EPS and now played middle to top for the last 2 seasons. Aca was a nobody rocking at WCG. It's not the orc imbalance's fault if they don't want to play anymore. I guess I have to hammer Knoff's Dreamhack win into your lousy brain, you keep on forgetting that. Also not an issue f orc imba that the swedish scene is dead. Or maybe it is.

Yeah, stats don't lie. Orc gets better and better, and that they even manage to bend the stats by 2% when there's 3 years of numbers already makes it even more severe.

tell me, why do you even try to argue against 90%+ of tournament wins for orc? What could possibly be your counter argument for that? You never showed one, except ofc the violet approach of superior skill and determination.

nerf blademaster (imho: increase manacost of ww, increase cd of ww, lower crit dmg by multipling only base dmg), and you got your "the most imbalanced race" in the bottom like it was many years before this BM shit
nerf dh and you got still staff and talons, nerf dh and staff and you got still talons, nerf all three, and you got still bear/dry or another mix of units with a lot of combo heroes from altar/tavern
second, orc got imbalanced one certain unit with one certain skill with one certain item setup, it is still one unit, you cant mass it like talons or bears

i have tryed to play without wolfriders, without esnare, and the fact is, that if you remove esnare completly, orcs got no chance in ground fights vs any race, sorcres, drayds and undead would completly smash orc, there would be only four effective ways for orcs to win, and that would be baseraid with mass wolfriders, or surprising tower rush before t2 or right after t2, or t3 tauren+sw or the last strat would be mass wyvern
the problem is that orcs would get owned with towerrushes more easily, baseraids without esnare would be less effective, orc towerrush is easy to counter, unless you are orc, and wyverns face it or not are too easy to counter as well with every race, that mean
humans wouldnt need to do FE vs orcs (like they need it now--), undeads wouldnt need t3 to kill the orc, elf could stay at T1 and destroy orc easy with mass huntz
esnare is just something that is a must, but i admit that some reasonable nerf would be fine, but how?

eric and eps? so what? i have seen him doing better 2-3 years back in NGL
knoff won dreamhack? so what? i remember fury won dreamhack too, and that was time when he couldnt win a shit in NGL or wc3l, what should be that then ? knoff won DH in winter 2008, but in summer 2009 quess what? http://www.sk-gaming.com/tournament/643

You guys are spacing out the discussion here. Knoff won Dreamhack? So what. What we're trying to resolve about here is that Orc is clearly imbalanced, especially vs Undead. I took the pleasure to research in some statistics that w3g.replays.net had. Here's what it came up with.
The number shows the percentual difference between the wins vs Ne, Hu, Orc compared to the wins vs UD for some orcs

Grubby: 11 %-Points More wins vs UD than NE/HU/Orc
Focus: 8 %-Points More
Lyn: 12 %-Points More
viOlet: 13 %-Points More

This not only shows how flawed this Match up is but also that we lack so many Pro Undeads on the Scene. And come again, what made Lucier, Susiria, Reign, Fov and all the others retire before any of the other oldschool players did? Yeh, the balance.

Funny, if you want to make it about a single matchup, take Orc vs Ud. Nerf Blademaster, you still got Farseer, nerf Shadow hunter you still got TC. Nerf ensnare, you still got the tier2 expo. Nerf crits you still got wyverns owning fiends. Nerf Speedscroll and Orc might have to buy a TP if he goes baseraiding.

The point of Knoff winning dreamhack is that he was some scrub who lost to random ladder noobs before that, and that he won Dreamhack, and not Liil.DC, not Dowaq, not Thorzain, no, again another Orc won the tournament. Like Orcs wins all tournaments. As I said, why are you even trying toa rgue against orc winning 90% of the tournaments? Answer that already before we waste out time here.
Do you want to blame coincidence, luck, skill and creativity for each and every tournament Orc stole from the balanced races?

LL, this is not just about the obvious Orc asskicking vs Ud, it's about the retarded repetitive lame that is orc vs all races on all maps, and they pretty much own elf too cause all tournament maps feature claws, claws and claws. Zotac is almost a save heaven with mostly balanced maps, and even the funny Snow Drop that favores elf a bit.

farseer? shadowhunter? its like kotg first vs undead. tc? he should do what ? tickle ?
no esnare? gg in 10 minutes
t2? show me how you will gain time for building it
wyverns owning fiends? nice joke :D
nerf speedscroll? how do you want to nerf it ?

poor knoff, he was trying so hard everytime, remember game vs hasuobs on ts? or that towerrush vs lucifron on tr? or vs some elf on gw, where he was owning early and mid game but in the end he lost thx to bears and little taurens (aow)? ... after so long time he won one tournament its cos imbalance? why he didnt win another dreamhack then? why he was out in first round? i wonder, where was that imba this time? he should rock it hard to the top!

elfs needed one week for owning orcs thx to moons talons
humans needed one week for owning orcs thx to skys towerpush
orc needed two years to train over and over bm+sh+grunt+rider+sw to be on the top
orc isnt like elf that needed one unit to own a race, orc isnt like human that needed one building to own a race, orc needed extremly long time to know how to play early game, mid game and late game, with certain heroes and with certain units, musted learned how to fight in battles, where is the best time to pull back, when to evade oponent, when to attack oponent, this whole proces was 2 years long and in the end we get a nice nerf patch with staff and tower repair

not to mention that humans can do better vs orcs like right now, imo playing AM(with blizz)+panda can fuck whole BM shit
elfs could defend against base raid with 3 unrooted aows with 3-4 talons behind them
dunno about undeads, but using casters and mb some ghoul/fiends mix at mid game could help

funplayer, you are elf, you like moon and i know you hate when moon is losing, you are basied, like legendarylover... so am i, i played a certain race, i like to watch a certain player
but if you want be even little usefull, tell me how to change the balance of this game, cos your "remove blademaster" opinion is completly shity, will cause only another imbalance, so would "remove or drasticaly nerf esnare" do, not to mention your knowledge about the orc race is overacted, mb if you give me some good response, i would not think of you as a "a basied fan, who is angry that his race isnt owning like it used to do"

legendarylover, they might left, but balance was only a part of the whole reason, they left mainly for military service, or that they couldnt keep with other pros

" its like kotg first vs undead." Did you know that Creo actually had a very good kotg tacc vs ud on TM?
He won vs pretty good players with it, and " tc? he should do what ? tickle ?", he ment that you still got tc as a second hero if they nerf sh...

wall of text. didnt read.

Next time we draw little comic strips for you. We don't want to exclude the simpleminded!

You don't get it, I was just using your words. "nerf this and you still got that"
Ofc I'm not saying "remove hero/ability", just nerf it. The ensnare example was just to show you that it's Orc that's imba, not just blademaster, because you can balance the Blademaster by nerfing ensnare.
What I would nerf? Definitely item damage adding to critical strikes. Then we can add collision size to Windwalk on at least level 1, probably even level 2. Or on all levels if he's revealed. That's about it. No more, no less.

I'm not biased, I cheer for all non-Orcs races :D

You gave pretty good examples why Knoff sucked hard. Just cause some no skiller tries hard you think it's fair for him to win a tournament? What a coincidence that only Orcs trying hard win tournaments these days, and Moon, Soccer, Ted etc. don't. You're obviously mentally challenged with all that "but he didn't win it again", thank god he didn't. Naturally he dropped out vs Human, the only matchup where Orc needs some brain and even there they win half of the matches. And if they don't, they call it lame imba abuse, like you do. Who's biased again?

"legendarylover, they might left, but balance was only a part of the whole reason, they left mainly for military service, or that they couldnt keep with other pros"

Once again topping off your invalid opinion with an outrageously stupid comment. All Koreans leave for military sooner or later, and they couldn't keep up with other pros because of their sucky race obviously which again makes it a BALANCE ISSUE.

THINK FOR ONE FKING SECOND. /Bale

Fly is def. no patch orc, he defeated yaws 2 games with FS, and lyn (who defeated grubby) 2-0 which was a great feat

the only problem is blademaster, he wasn't a threat in ROC but in TFT the item drops and voodoo lounge have just became too much of a buff to him