Time: 12:54:28 CET 03:54:28 PST 06:54:28 EST 19:54:28 Seoul 18:54:28 Beijing
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My knowledge of the UD race is pretty limited,but what I do know is that most counters to orc revolve around the disabling of the BM.Does anyone think that cripple might be the way to go?
If taking him out of the game for 4 seconds doesn't do any good, what's cripple supposed to do?
Just checked it, cripple costs 175 mana. For it to be effective you'd need a slaughterhouse for statues and dual temple, need fiends first as basic damage dealers and anti-air. Then, as Happy said, you don't have enough wood to even research all that stuff. By the time you have your army ready the Orc has an expo and many wyverns.
Just checked it, cripple costs 175 mana. For it to be effective you'd need a slaughterhouse for statues and dual temple, need fiends first as basic damage dealers and anti-air. Then, as Happy said, you don't have enough wood to even research all that stuff. By the time you have your army ready the Orc has an expo and many wyverns.
Cripple needs necro + t3 + it's very mana intensive. Can be countered by dispell, necros are low hp easy to crit + stomp. While you get your necros orc will be 70 sup with exp in back and 4-4 heroes + orc has speedscroll to counter the effect and escape.
On a non pro gamer lvl I think it might be a choice worth trying maybe with an exp in 80 supply fights where it's not so easy to dispell instantly.
On a non pro gamer lvl I think it might be a choice worth trying maybe with an exp in 80 supply fights where it's not so easy to dispell instantly.
all is about dmg output, like blademaster, he do a lot of dmg to single target, there are few more ways to lower it, like undead spellcasters, banshee is good (curse give a 33% chance to miss the target, its like all of your units are demonhunters with 3lvl evasion :)), you dont need even t3
problem with wood its because you got only 2 ghouls when you are playing fiends, how to do like undeads did vs elf ? ghouls at start, and then making fiends?
or how about playing some heroes a lot more ? like pit lord (hot -30% dmg aoe), fire lord (soul burn silence, dot and - dmg), or dl with sleep or cl with impale, all abilities, that makes bm a less effective (and not only BM), are usefull, even when it mean to do it only for 4 sec in the battle
like human, he would be without casters a really weak t2 race, but with them he can make orc army slower in moving and lowering the dmg output a lot with only slow, thats the reason why human can own orc
problem with wood its because you got only 2 ghouls when you are playing fiends, how to do like undeads did vs elf ? ghouls at start, and then making fiends?
or how about playing some heroes a lot more ? like pit lord (hot -30% dmg aoe), fire lord (soul burn silence, dot and - dmg), or dl with sleep or cl with impale, all abilities, that makes bm a less effective (and not only BM), are usefull, even when it mean to do it only for 4 sec in the battle
like human, he would be without casters a really weak t2 race, but with them he can make orc army slower in moving and lowering the dmg output a lot with only slow, thats the reason why human can own orc
Don't think cripple would work, but this thread got me thinking about Unholy Frenzy+Alchemist's rage. Not sure if it's an effective idea but it sure sounds fun at least ;D~
The dreadlord as third hero was tried by FoV in the last couple of months...against...Some orc(who i think) on TM and was relatively effective but in the end that wasn't enough.
The points you guys make about the tech and research costs seem legit,but that is also true about banshees(in terms of costs) and I've seen it work quite a few times.Maybe combine it with DR as third hero for silence to decrease the effectiveness of spirit walkers.Even without the DR,I dunno if spirit walkers could manage dispelling cripple,some skellies and cast spirit link all the time.But,then again you wouldn't be able to get destros in this situation...
The argument for speedscrolling away to counter is correct.But the UD could also maybe manage to make the orc waste a lot of mana,tp out and then fight since he can regen much faster with the help of statues.And maybe at lvl 4 get lvl 1 death pact on the DK to make it harder for the orc to force tp's by hero focus in bad situations.
But you guys are probably right...I'm just thinking outloud or whatever...I just hate seeing UD's(what's left of them) doing the same thing over and over again and failing all the time.
The points you guys make about the tech and research costs seem legit,but that is also true about banshees(in terms of costs) and I've seen it work quite a few times.Maybe combine it with DR as third hero for silence to decrease the effectiveness of spirit walkers.Even without the DR,I dunno if spirit walkers could manage dispelling cripple,some skellies and cast spirit link all the time.But,then again you wouldn't be able to get destros in this situation...
The argument for speedscrolling away to counter is correct.But the UD could also maybe manage to make the orc waste a lot of mana,tp out and then fight since he can regen much faster with the help of statues.And maybe at lvl 4 get lvl 1 death pact on the DK to make it harder for the orc to force tp's by hero focus in bad situations.
But you guys are probably right...I'm just thinking outloud or whatever...I just hate seeing UD's(what's left of them) doing the same thing over and over again and failing all the time.
I've had an idea for quite a while. Imagine playing the regularry fiend strat on SV with fiends/DK first later tech tier3 with slaughterhour for destors. But, what your orc opponent isnt aware of is that you've placed out a hidden spot at the top left spot above the expansion (undead blight bought in the shop) and at that spot you place a Temple of the damned, which producces necromancers. Since you're orc opponent is unaware of this, he will continue doing the regulary orc vs ud strat with teching tier3 and going raiders/kodos (no SVers since destros dispell it so easily). When the time is right you bring one single meat wagon filled with corps and a couple of tier2 (possible tier3) necros and just summon a bunch of skeletons in your opponents base. The orc will find himself unable to dispell and therefor gets panic and loses.
Pretty neat idea huh?
Pretty neat idea huh?
LegendaryLover wrote:
I've had an idea for quite a while. Imagine playing the regularry fiend strat on SV with fiends/DK first later tech tier3 with slaughterhour for destors. But, what your orc opponent isnt aware of is that you've placed out a hidden spot at the top left spot above the expansion (undead blight bought in the shop) and at that spot you place a Temple of the damned, which producces necromancers. Since you're orc opponent is unaware of this, he will continue doing the regulary orc vs ud strat with teching tier3 and going raiders/kodos (no SVers since destros dispell it so easily). When the time is right you bring one single meat wagon filled with corps and a couple of tier2 (possible tier3) necros and just summon a bunch of skeletons in your opponents base. The orc will find himself unable to dispell and therefor gets panic and loses. Pretty neat idea huh?
An orc not aware of smth?The BM not aware of it?. :D If the orc doesn't have t3,than it actually might work,but if he does,he can just base raid.
cimo wrote:
all is about dmg output, like blademaster, he do a lot of dmg to single target, there are few more ways to lower it, like undead spellcasters, banshee is good (curse give a 33% chance to miss the target, its like all of your units are demonhunters with 3lvl evasion :)), you dont need even t3problem with wood its because you got only 2 ghouls when you are playing fiends, how to do like undeads did vs elf ? ghouls at start, and then making fiends?
or how about playing some heroes a lot more ? like pit lord (hot -30% dmg aoe), fire lord (soul burn silence, dot and - dmg), or dl with sleep or cl with impale, all abilities, that makes bm a less effective (and not only BM), are usefull, even when it mean to do it only for 4 sec in the battle
like human, he would be without casters a really weak t2 race, but with them he can make orc army slower in moving and lowering the dmg output a lot with only slow, thats the reason why human can own orc
ur right ! Good knowledge of the game...
ps: Cripple would never work with a good orc, bm is a good hero to scout, the orc would know very fast
gwt_ds_carw wrote:
LegendaryLover wrote:
I've had an idea for quite a while. Imagine playing the regularry fiend strat on SV with fiends/DK first later tech tier3 with slaughterhour for destors. But, what your orc opponent isnt aware of is that you've placed out a hidden spot at the top left spot above the expansion (undead blight bought in the shop) and at that spot you place a Temple of the damned, which producces necromancers. Since you're orc opponent is unaware of this, he will continue doing the regulary orc vs ud strat with teching tier3 and going raiders/kodos (no SVers since destros dispell it so easily). When the time is right you bring one single meat wagon filled with corps and a couple of tier2 (possible tier3) necros and just summon a bunch of skeletons in your opponents base. The orc will find himself unable to dispell and therefor gets panic and loses. Pretty neat idea huh?
An orc not aware of smth?The BM not aware of it?. :D If the orc doesn't have t3,than it actually might work,but if he does,he can just base raid.
gwt is right, blademaster is scouting anywhere but once again, you dont need t3 for necros with skeletons
i knowed one player, who could beat better orcs with undead, he used his dk for harras and mostly for creepsteal, he was making ghouls, fast tech, in the middle of teching he builded graveyard, then after tech he made slaughter house and temple, making some 2-3 fiends allready, upgraded web, when lich comes out, he got statue +1 or 2 casters allready, and then attacked orc with all his army what he got, ghouls, fiends, casters .. and he won a lot with it
[QUOTE]gwt is right, blademaster is scouting anywhere but once again, you dont need t3 for necros with skeletons
i knowed one player, who could beat better orcs with undead, he used his dk for harras and mostly for creepsteal, he was making ghouls, fast tech, in the middle of teching he builded graveyard, then after tech he made slaughter house and temple, making some 2-3 fiends allready, upgraded web, when lich comes out, he got statue +1 or 2 casters allready, and then attacked orc with all his army what he got, ghouls, fiends, casters .. and he won a lot with it
i knowed one player, who could beat better orcs with undead, he used his dk for harras and mostly for creepsteal, he was making ghouls, fast tech, in the middle of teching he builded graveyard, then after tech he made slaughter house and temple, making some 2-3 fiends allready, upgraded web, when lich comes out, he got statue +1 or 2 casters allready, and then attacked orc with all his army what he got, ghouls, fiends, casters .. and he won a lot with it
That sounds like Farseer towers vs elf. It CAN work but it largely depends on the enemy scouting and adapting, or if he just plays down his cheese. Strategies that depend on the opponents skill don't work on the pro level obviously.
Atila_ wrote:
cimo wrote:
all is about dmg output, like blademaster, he do a lot of dmg to single target, there are few more ways to lower it, like undead spellcasters, banshee is good (curse give a 33% chance to miss the target, its like all of your units are demonhunters with 3lvl evasion :)), you dont need even t3problem with wood its because you got only 2 ghouls when you are playing fiends, how to do like undeads did vs elf ? ghouls at start, and then making fiends?
or how about playing some heroes a lot more ? like pit lord (hot -30% dmg aoe), fire lord (soul burn silence, dot and - dmg), or dl with sleep or cl with impale, all abilities, that makes bm a less effective (and not only BM), are usefull, even when it mean to do it only for 4 sec in the battle
like human, he would be without casters a really weak t2 race, but with them he can make orc army slower in moving and lowering the dmg output a lot with only slow, thats the reason why human can own orc
ur right ! Good knowledge of the game...
ps: Cripple would never work with a good orc, bm is a good hero to scout, the orc would know very fast
The Firelord will never work as he is waaaay to fragile and cannot be healed by coil.The DL is pretty good,but pit lord seems like the best choice by far.Basically,just make the orc have to dispell as much crap as you can,and then even UD casters might work :D
The Orc knowing doesn't change much.This is not supposed to be an element of a surprise.At first,they'd probably think u were going for banshees and wouldn't bother with too much SWers so that would be good for the UD.But if they scout necromancers,not much will change in the orc army composition,but the awareness would help ofc.
gwt_ds_carw wrote:
The Firelord will never work as he is waaaay to fragile and cannot be healed by coil.The DL is pretty good,but pit lord seems like the best choice by far.Basically,just make the orc have to dispell as much crap as you can,and then even UD casters might work :DThe Orc knowing doesn't change much.This is not supposed to be an element of a surprise.At first,they'd probably think u were going for banshees and wouldn't bother with too much SWers so that would be good for the UD.But if they scout necromancers,not much will change in the orc army composition,but the awareness would help ofc.
Firelord works in a 2 globin shop map (buy him invul pot) + frost armor on him, pit lord will only work on t3, one thing u need to know is every race needs atleast one unit with a slow/stop enemy unit ability. For orc SH + raiders, human MK + sorcs, Elf Kotg + dryads, and Undead only have Lich, because DL is easy to counter with dispel + self hit.
Necromancer like someone said, the undead cannot creep good and fast as others strats, in t2 he won't creep at all because of this strategy is very weak t2. A good orc will have like 65 food + expo when u finish all those upgrades and come to fight.
Atila_ wrote:
gwt_ds_carw wrote:
The Firelord will never work as he is waaaay to fragile and cannot be healed by coil.The DL is pretty good,but pit lord seems like the best choice by far.Basically,just make the orc have to dispell as much crap as you can,and then even UD casters might work :DThe Orc knowing doesn't change much.This is not supposed to be an element of a surprise.At first,they'd probably think u were going for banshees and wouldn't bother with too much SWers so that would be good for the UD.But if they scout necromancers,not much will change in the orc army composition,but the awareness would help ofc.
Firelord works in a 2 globin shop map (buy him invul pot) + frost armor on him, pit lord will only work on t3, one thing u need to know is every race needs atleast one unit with a slow/stop enemy unit ability. For orc SH + raiders, human MK + sorcs, Elf Kotg + dryads, and Undead only have Lich, because DL is easy to counter with dispel + self hit.
Necromancer like someone said, the undead cannot creep good and fast as others strats, in t2 he won't creep at all because of this strategy is very weak t2. A good orc will have like 65 food + expo when u finish all those upgrades and come to fight.
The role of he DL is not only to disable the BM during a fight.If the BM is revealed while scouting or trying to creepjack you can use coil/nova and focus fire,then sleep again...And repeat until he is dead.If he doesn't have an invuln pot he's screwed.The Pit Lord as third hero only ofc.I dunno about the firelord rly.Seems like an easy target even with frost armor.It wouldn't help too much against 200+crits and ensnare.At least that's what I think.You could be right
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