This is not a IMBA ORC topic, im kinda sick of those, but a "try" to know why is Orc wining almost everything since 1.22 appeared.

The answer: I DON'T KNOW.

This are my reasons.

Mayor changes were nerfed towards NE, "THE IMBA RACE" of 1.21.
Nerfed: Dryads, orb of venom, staff bug.

UND and HUM were buffed, except for the repair rate that was nerfed.
Zigg armor up, Knight up. No more big changes.

ORC! THE "IMBA" race. UN-T-O-U-C-H-E-D.

So: The whiners of "IMBA NE in 1.21" said: Imba NE, mass talons and GG for ORC. ORC CANT WIN!!!! STUPID TALONS...talons were not even nerfed a miligram, just were dryads, and actually almost no one plays dryads in the ORC MU...why can't NE win now?

Humans main melee unit wass buffed, it true we don't see all that tier 2 Tower pushes, not rushes, u can't call a move a "rush" in the min 10 of the game, but fast expas are still almost succesfull... why can't humans win anymore...(Sky).

Undeads vs Orc has always been a little unbalanced, raiders base-raiding zig...so...zig get buffed. Why can't UND win now?

No one said that critical was imba in 1.21, or that grunt were just "to overpowered", or that orcs were un-creative, 3 hero combination, they just cry about NE being TOO IMBA.

My conclusions, I DONT F.ing now....I just think orcs are doing their job. Grubby is back in shape, as we saw him in 2004-2005. Sky is in a downhill, Moon kinda does, game is loosing "motivation". Lots of top UND and NE players are clan less, and hey, have anyone noticed that the real "top race players" that are getting paid for playing are ORCS? Mr. G in EG, Mr. Lyn for SK, LucifoN for nGize and Fly for mouz. Does that makes sense a little.

Think and discuss, pals!

Yea Moon probably practices SC2, he just took a map from NaDa.
Well who actually really knows, whats behind the scene.
Anyways, you are right on most points, though UD vs NE really became imbalanced, and about Orc being imba. Lots of the new maps favour Orc, this is something u didnt took in account.

Melting valey, Ancient Isles, etc etc. There are few maps left favouring Elf players, Turtle Rock is one of these last maps.

BM gets buffed thanks to these newer maps, with mass claw drops, which is enough for Orc to take the advantage.

well of course in a rts, someone find a strategy the other race have to find something against this strategy... Orc did very well and improved a lot their BM/riders/SW, no doubt about that.

But other races fail to find something against this "new" orc playstyle, especially because of the blademaster, pros dont fear orcs, they fear the blademaster.

@ MLW are you sure that TR actually favours elf? In NE vs Orc this map is pretty good for orc as it's really hard to stop bm creeping orange creeps and getting items + blue ogre with bm (shop), this creep can drop claws +9.Consclusion - TR is one of the maps where bm can be stacked rly good almost always, ofc if orc doesn't have some total lack of luck + in all the cases orc has 2 sure circlets. I would say TS is the only map which rly favours elf.

Don't underestimate the nerf to tier2 push with DH/BM coupled with Grubby teaching orcs how to build a defensive base. One of the reasons DoTTs were so effective pre-staff nerf was because orc main chance to win vs that strat is to hit between tier2 -> master upgrade completed. Players like Moon who are masters of harassment completely shut down this window by constantly cancelling the orcs T2 buildings, making them have to defend instead of attack.

Now with the staff nerf this is a lot harder to do and going into an orc's base, if they build it right, is nearly as scary as undead's.

This is actually an interesting topic, especially if people can keep it this way.

Orc imba!!! :-D

Just kidding so now to the point.


TR favour elf in elf against orc because there are no wide enough spaces for orc melee army to fight efficently.
TS doesnt favour elf that much because the orc creeproutes with itemcreeping the natural gold mine is quite strong.

u believe in that? rofl.

Nice topic.It's also cool to see one not turn into a whine-thread about the ''imbamaster''.

I don't think TR is a NE favored map.Like mentioned above,it's quite difficult to stop the BM from creeping the orange camps for items,the ogres at goblin merchants as well as the lvl 6 trolls at the goldmines(starting positions).
The staff nerf does not affect the early t2 harrasement in ORC vs NE a lot if u ask me.What I do is get a staff of tp and a staff of preservation on my dh.That way it's fairly easy to save both of your heroes.In my opinion,the thing most likely to hinder your early t2 push is a good base design,which serves as proof that orcs really have stepped up their game.

As for ppl complaining about the blademaster being a right click hero...That could have been true IF the blademasters only role was dealing insane dmg in the form of crits.But guess what-it's not!The way I see it,his true power lies in scouting and creepjacking,which is

Orc is imba because of blademaster. They started the "item abuse" a little before 1.22 which made it even stronger due to small nerfs on other races.

NE vs Orc, give night elfs the old staff back and they'll start winning again.

Hu vs Orc, ToD quit and Sky usually gets invited instead of TH000. Sky can't do Sky pushes anymore, he was good when he could play agressive but he is kinda bad at adapting. And when he loses it is usually always because of that. Slightly broken matchup which leads to stupid stuff like mass gryphons and shitloads of towers but not really imbalanced.

Yeah a lot of good ideas actually getting across here, although I still don't get why OP even bothers mentioning knights buff let alone calling it their main melee unit. How often does a human go knights against orc? Even the buff won't really make it a viable unit imo since noone really wants to go into a late game against orc.

...a lot harder than it looks.All in all,this particular MU is pretty balanced if u ask me(a NE player).

In human vs orc:the orcs have gotten better against early t2 tower pushes,also known as the ''sky push'',but it seems to me that humans are acting as if this strat is completly useless nowadays,and it's not!Not even close.
It's not that bad to play 2 sanctums and mass caster on MV or EI,but lately(and by lately I mean in the last year or so) humans have been opting for mass gryphs on these 2 maps in 99% of the games.The funny part is that ORC vs HU was considered a bit imba in the favor of the human before they started pumping gryphones on every single map.Why would you change the winning strategy?

As for ORC vs UD, I am not sure.I don't know a lot about this MU tbh.But,if memory serves,this mu hasn't always been considered a herculian task for an UD.

All in all,I rly think the orcs have stepped up their game.Big time.Add to that a couple of other factors like sky being in bad shape and infi/moon being inconsistent...You've got yourself a recipe for orc domination

Oh right...The Knight thing.How exactly is it the ''main human melee unit''?It's practically never used,especially against orc.Come to think of it,the only time i've seen a human use knights against orc was Michael vs Lyn? or Grubby on MV in NGL a couple of months ago.(maybe a couple of times more in the past,but not recently at least)
I've seen them being used before against NE/UD,but in the last year or so,they have seen less action than necromancers :)

Good point about TR,but it's not rly all that bad.But,then again,it's relatively easy to predict a NE's creeproute and rely on creepjacks a bit more than usual.

As for TS...I think it's fairly even.Neither spawn offers an advantage;orcs do have a strong creeproute,and can easily even snitch the renegade wizard on their opponents side with the BM,but elves can practically creep half of the map with their AoW while remaining in the safe proximity of their base.2 Merc camps also work in the favor of the NE is u ask me.

Creo, Soju, Deadman, Tod, Lucifer and Susiria retired.

Hot = completely out of shape
moon = maybe 70% out of 100% or 60%?
Sky = completely out of shape
Infi = completely out of shape
Check = completely out of shape(just remember the games vs lyn)

Just take a look at Th000's(human) performance vs Orc. He lost 4 out of 27 games vs orc.

23 Wins, 4 losses! So what? Imo Sky, Infi etc. seen better times but orc is not imba ;)

TH000 won vs, Focus, Lucifron, Grubby, Lyn, Fly100 etc. Check it out...

Why did nobody know 100 years ago that tobacco was deadly?Why 2 years ago nobody knew that the bank system was going to crash ?

FARSEER MAEEEEEEEH YEAH

Simply , 1.22 came at the worst possible moment - at the time which the orc players started to abuse the item shit.Then came the unjustfied human nerf and the elves were a little too overnerfed and here we have the result.If BM's crit gets nerfed I dont think that there is something that will make the game THAT imbalanced.Imbalanced will always exists, the game cant be perfect, but I dont find any shit possible to stop the BM from criting.I play now really rarely, but I always keep getting surprised when some noob orc uses hex and focuses my full hp AM.This shit doesnt work, except once in ten times when he gets 2-3 straight crits and kills it and I am like "wtf"

Thax all for keeping the ideas coming and the thread "serious", if we can say this is serious at some point.

So, wrapping up a little, we can say: ORC's managed to find a "new" strat, find AMAZING creep routes to get the best possible items in the best TIMING for their heros. They thought of a way of base building that actually make sense with his tier 3 main build, a FORTRESS...minor nerfs and so, that as I can see, no one really balmes on them for that 180o degrees change in the game (HUM DOWN, UND 3er, used to be 4th, NE 2, and orc 1st, who to me used to be 3erd, behind NE and HUM)...so, new strat, new creep routes, new item stack priorities, new base build = LOTS OF HUNDREDS of games and hours of our friendly pros (Grub, Lyn, Fly, Lucifron) to give the game a twist...now I ask, after this analysis: should we all shout imba orc imba orc?

For GWT: Well, that's actually the point of getting knights into the scene: No one uses knights, no one goes for Golems...maybe there's something behind those units. If 3 years ago I would've say in a thread: Why no body plays talons vs orc, I would have been eaten alive, noob would be the least...but then, Moon appears, he works the strat out, add some "random" heros, BM as second, TINKER as 3rd, and suddenly, IMBA TALONS! No way to stop that strat!!!! Now a days I think elf win 1 and loses 1 with this strat...

Anyone who's thinking that Orc has an advantage against Human and Elf has no clue about this game. Just try to micro your army against 50 pop talon fairy 3 hero. It's a lot harder than vice versa + bm is doing like 5 sec damage with invu pot but he doesn't really deal damage in a long fight. Against Human it's obvious that Orc is at huge disadvantage at early t2 when human got mk + sorcs. Also late T1 Tower Rushes (hi TM) or MK + fe on MV are really hard to counter. Human has many viable options while Orc only has one possible strat. Against Undead i cleary agree that Orc is overpowered.
People only whine about BM because he seems so strong. Orc has to rely on BM, without, it's very hard to win because your army doesn't deal enough damage. Try to win a fight against human when bm is dead, you'll lose even if he has 20 supply less.

@Hellneabis: Well,I guess that your argument about talons is viable,but I just fail to see how knights would be a solution against orc.Teching straight to t3 would be very optimistic...although doable.Check out replays of platoplus-ghost on replayers.com if u're interested.But his strat took a serious hit in 1.22 when the staff got nerfed,but it still might work.
And if you go for an expo,it means that the orc would most probably get one as well.With an expo up,it would be extremely easy for an orc to get the SW master upgrade,a couple of tauren and you can kiss your knights goodbye...Well,I can't be sure,cuz the last time I fought knights against tauren i wasn't using my keyboard when playing wc3 :)

Who knows,it might work...Human tri-heroes are really strong,with an expo,you could easily get 2-3 staffs...Add a couple of gryphs maybe...Just thinking outloud :) I guess knights wouldn't be all that bad in the HU unit mix against orc.

Oooooor...well...NE are using master dotts,UD's started using master banshees...Maybe master sorcs is the solution? :)

That was never true. I know some pro said it in some Audio-comment, but that was even before they widened the entries to each base because of that. The reason it's been an elf map for so long are the 2 shops, the tavern, the many gold mines and the turtles that can be easily creeped with range. Now that expos got nerfed and fiend switch owns beastmaster vs ud it's an Ud map only.
Armies fit through every path there np, if it favored elf, why doesn't the really open TM favor Orc or disfavor elf?

Also schnuggels being a retard as usual, hinting at mass elf and human pros retiring or being out of shape. After the patch.
And several new Orc "talents" appearing.
After the patch.

See a pattern?

Also master sorcs doesn't work vs Orc, polymorph doesn't affect heroes/Blademaster.

Very nice thread =) all posts so far have some valid points

Orc vs NE: this MU has seen orc winning more than NE this patch (check race statistics). I believe that orc had allready figured out how to play vs talons even before the patch came, and with the nerf to staffs&dryads + the new maps which favoured orc slightly more than NE because of the BM-friendly creeps/items, it turned the MU completely arround from favoring NE to favoring Orc.

Orc vs UD: This mu is even worse now than before and is by far the most imbalanced MU in the game. (check race statistics). I think the reason it got worse than before is because of the rod-nerf, new maps (the new maps seems to have the biggest negative effect for UD), and orcs using BM more in this mu. This mu was always completely fucked because ghouls got raped by grunts + chainwave, so u had to go fiends which got owned by ensnare/hex/stomp. There is no hope for this MU, maybe 3-4 patches from now. Until then Undeads may as well play human vs Orcs.

Hu vs Orc: In the previous patch this was a MU humans had the advantage. Now this MU is quite even. The tower-nerf is obviously the big thing here in addition to the maps again.

How to balance it out:
Fix the maps... Why the fuck are there claws/circlets/gloves all over the place?... it does not make sense to me. Other options are ofc to nerf the BMs dps or his windwalk. I would prefer his invistimer put to 10/15/20 and his ability to walk through units while invis removed. I would however not nerf the BMs damage, since this is all he is good for in fights. These are ofc just my opinions =] thx to whoever read this long post

U know nothing about the game. U and MLW- are on the same level. Moon keeps on losing his heros again and again in the first 10 minutes for nothing and then u are complaining about imba orc but in early TFT NE Players were just more creativ and moon is the "fifth race" blabla. TH000 is dominating playing NE/HU quite a while. Even when Lyn lost 1:3, 2:3 vs check and won 3:0, 3:1 vs moon u complained about imba orc. Moon also lost to Ted, Happy, Remind, Soccer so what? "IMBA ORC"

Moon actually improved in elf mirror, so did Happy and Ted vs elf and in general, not to mention the imba vs elf. Lyn lost to Check because he played crap in those games and because Check palyed a new strat (kotg hunts start). No one is saying elf is bad vs Human. Th000 vs orc, I can't remember him shining so much, but Human is still Orc's worst matchup, not that it says much. Human/chinese shape still depends on on and offline, as seen with Fly.

And Moon doesn't lose his heroes for nothing, he loses them to blade ensnare rightclick. Look at his wins and say he's out of shape lol. He loses vs Orc because he's desperately trying riskier and riskier strats to somehow get an advantage that a 250+ crit doesn't counter. If it fails it fails, it has nothing to do with shape.

''How to balance it out:
Fix the maps... Why the fuck are there claws/circlets/gloves all over the place?... it does not make sense to me. Other options are ofc to nerf the BMs dps or his windwalk. I would prefer his invistimer put to 10/15/20 and his ability to walk through units while invis removed. I would however not nerf the BMs damage, since this is all he is good for in fights. These are ofc just my opinions =] thx to whoever read this long post''

I agree on the map part.But the rest-i don't think so.While the invistimer on WW could be a solution,removing the ability to walk through units would render the spell practically useless.

On the Turtle Rock sub-topic:a huge number of goldmines on a map such as this one does not favour the elf at all.It is incredibly easy to scout them with the BM that expanding is practically futile(it will always get scouted before it goes up,and,in most cases,canceled by the above mentioned hero).
The ''turtles that can be easily creeped with range'' are easily crept with any race,I see no advantage for NE there.

And since when do fiends own the Beast Master???I beg to differ...Let me give you a hint:fast lvl 3 for the BeM with lvl 2 bear is very very effective against fiends.As soon as t2 comes and you add a naga-it gets quite tricky for the UD for a while and practically impossible to stop the NE expo.And,in case you were just about to say that I am some ''random bnet scrub'',''have no clue about the game'' or smth,let me tell you that this strat was used by HoT on various ocassions.Quite effectively I might add and against top UD players.

As for master sorcs vs orc...if you look closely,you will see a '':)'' right after that sentence meaning that I was not serious.
TS has 2 shops and a tavern and it's not concidered a NE map.AI as well(maybe beacuse it's relatively new)

The turtles are horrible to creep because the big turtle has that spiked armor like the Crypt Lord or spiked barricades that deal damage to melee attackers. You have to spend extra heal salves or half your army is at 80% hp.
I descirbed how TR was the elf map back in the days. You know, strong beastmaster, mass expos etc...

So why isn't anybody using Bem vs Ud anymore? Ah yeah, because he can't do shit vs fiends, destros own him anyway. The bear worked a couple of times as a surprise, but it's not even guaranteed you even get level 3 before the Ud pushes with naga and the first 2 fiends.

And TS is considered a NE map.

So to sum it up: You're some random bnet scrub.

I feel that the moving through units parts is one of his most annoying features. Cus it takes away your your possibility to surroud him when he is creepjacking you. Maybe only remove it for level 1 Windwalk, and have him get it at level 2?

crit should just be base damage multiplyer, then add on the + attacks after.

Bring back LT imo.

Yea, and Plunder Isle -__-;;

You should be able to get lvl 3 with your BeM before the UD gets to t2,or at least pretty close to it depending on the map.

I read my post and i feel some kind of disparaging tone towards you in it.This was not intentional,I was just extremly pissed while I was writing the comment.
TS is a NE map as long as a human is the opponent,but in NE vs ORC I don't remember it being considered a NE favored map.

It's funny. through all the years when people called nelf imbalanced n stuff and orc was kinda underpowered, pros kept saying that orc needs just some time to find a way to beat that strategies.

Well. . . that would have been the best way as we can say today.

Like it was said in the thread a hundred times before, the patch was such a major nerf for nelf, just imagine dryads +20 xp orc lesser damage(which is ok as it was imba) + staff nerf, that's too much.

Additionally undeads are playing their 3 hero fiends TeD style for a while now giving elf even harder times than with gargs.

So as a conclusion we can say that although elf was nerfed big time, they are still in competition unlike undeads who thanks to the most imbalanced mu of all times (ud < orc) never were.
Maybe the only way to finally balance wc3 is sc2 release.

The orc vs ud is surely imbalanced. I think that just removing the orb the effect of disspel might work good.

So we can say that other races just need some time to adapt with the new orc strats ?

We can say that his avatar is wrong because Blademaster has been imbalanced since 1.17, it's just that other imbalance covered it.

What rod nerf?

The thing is, Rod has never been nerfed like the staffs. You can still summon skeletons with one hero from the rod then give it to another hero which can then summon another pair of skeletons Immediately without suffering from the cooldown.

Rod doesn't have unlimited use.

Rod has no cooldown. Your tests are a lie!

This wont affect the matchup so much because it is easy to disspell skeletons late game and it is not that expensive to buy a second rod.
Earlygame doesnt count because you have just one hero

Still some idiot said it was because of THIS the match up was wracked up. Gosh

I prefer to call people wrong or maybe in this case spammers not knowing what they are talking about. This matchup has been broken for a long time so its not only the BM. Maybe the destro manafoutain abuse on maps like GW were the only times when UD actuall had an upper hand in this mu?

there was a post of Sabian where he wrote an analys why orc is imba

I apologize for the RoD reset comment. (I blame gamla for telling me such a lie)
Anyways... I was drunk while writing that.
Orc > UD for 100 other reasons, none of which came with the new patch (except from the new maps)

damnit..........well i dont have problem with orcs
only the F**king blademaster mirror thats it
(Undead Clord+DK=win)

I think you are a noob.

well im semi-noob :P
new registered user dosnt mean that persons are noob.....ironicily