hi someone posted the link below in wcreplays forum where they explain the formula used for skills wihich work by chance like bms critical strike. it shows that it isnt completely random.

a simple example: in a 20 minute game where the bm gets many criticals in the beginning, its most likely that he wont get much afterwards till its "compensated", so that the 20 min game contains the amount of critical percentage which are written in the skill description.

read for yourself:
http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?showtopic=245439

But who said that game would last 20 min ^^ mayhap thoes criticals made in the early game won it for him!

yes thats how it may happen i think. but i didnt say those crits have to be compensated in past 10 mins, should be rather directly after a couple of crits in a small time span.
whats special is that the formula even causes a crit of the approximate percentage (like its written) in such a large span of 20 minutes.

i've not readen the text properly yet. what i said was maybe just 1/4 of it. its very good to know the whole thing though.

apparently evasion isnt affected by that formula. i smell imbalance

dota.. dota is shit, they dont know anything about imbalance @ REAL WARCRAFT!!! LADDER!! SOLO 1vs1!!

i dident read it but how does this system thing know when the game will end? it might be 30% for the first hour and then game over with it never having been compensated for, this would explain the insanely high numbers of crit always get though.

as for the evasion.. at level 3 with 30% its 30% more hp added on a unit with only 600-700 hp 180-210 more hp for a level 3 skill and this does not help against spells which is the real danger for dh anyway, might as well just buy a hp thingy that gives 150 hp and call it level 3 evasion

You forget it works with healing too and is amplified by the DH already tanking a lot due to high armour.

its still useless.

The fuck it is... cant count the amount of times iv cursed evasion, because the demonhunter survive because of that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9mVkhCCOgI&feature=related
thats what i call 15% crit chance

i bet it's way less than the times something did not escape because of crit :)

threadmaker is a dotaplayer, explains a lot

That's quite interesting actually. So if a game lasts longer than it takes for a BM to attack 31 times, there is guaranteed to be at least one crit in that time.

Probably more, since around 10 attacks = 0.5 probability (1 attack in 2, or 50%). At least, if i'm reading the graphs right. I haven't done any proper maths since i left school 7 years ago :P

I suggested a way to change all these luck factors: why not just let the blademaster hit a critical once every 7 attacks? And evasion to work once every 10/5/3 attacks? What I'm talking about is a system similar to "Storm"s in DOTA, so that you have to time your attacks and you KNOW when you are going to hit a critical: this would not only improve the skill needed for maximal effectiveness but also would reduce or even remove the luck factor such as 3 misses in a row or 3 250+ criticals in a row that change the game completely :)

Moreover it could be considered a differentiation method between good and better players since you would be able to see clearly who uses those abilities to the maximum of their potential.

Madness?

THIS IS NOT DOTA!!!

So then how is that different, fundamentally, from windwalk? Aside from the invisible part, it's almost identical. A little bit of randomness is a good thing in any game, as long as it is ONLY a little bit.

Sorry to say it, but that system is better, even if it's used in DOTA!

Starcraft is still one of the best games ever made just because the amount of luck involved is close to 0. In Warcraft, on the other hand, you've got all those shitty luck factors as in items (some are too powerful, others are too powerful combined), experience tomes (hi lvl 3 secondary hero when it should've been only lvl 2), critical strike and evasion and even spawn points because of the creeps and their positioning. I'm not saying a bit of luck is not good, I'm just fed up with games being decided by stupid luck. Warcraft is too much based on luck and even though most of the times the better player wins, there are some matches when luck turns everything around :)

@Zechs
[q]So then how is that different, fundamentally, from windwalk? Aside from the invisible part, it's almost identical. A little bit of randomness is a good thing in any game, as long as it is ONLY a little bit.[/q]

That's exactly the problem, there is too much luck in this game!

@hostilepulse
[q]I dont think that there is any way u can predict when ur BM is going to crit and when not , or even if there was some formula , I dont think that in a 70-70 fight someone would count the hits of his BM , instead of focusing on microing his units etc[/q]

It's not about predicting, it's about changing the way the ability works - not 15% chance to crit but after 6 non-crit shots a critical strike to follow and then start the cycle once again; pretty easy one could say.
And exactly, in a 70-70 fight one wouldn't count when his BM should hit a crit (unless he's really gosu) but he won't have any disadvantage from that - he will still have roughly the same chance to crit as in the current system and in a 20 minutes match he'll probably crit the same amount of times - so nothing's changed, just the luck factor, which we've already decided that has a TOO BIG influence in this game.

Matches like Lyn vs Fov (Teo link), Elfi vs Sting on TM and other 30234238423423 matches like that shouldn't happen, not when money is involved, not when people actually invest hours and hours of training to win a game. It's both irritating and unfair!

the whole wc3 "engine" is pretty much based on luck.Spawn points , item drop , minimum and maximum damage , crits/bash/evasion , all that crap can ruin the game.I dont think that there is any way u can predict when ur BM is going to crit and when not , or even if there was some formula , I dont think that in a 70-70 fight someone would count the hits of his BM , instead of focusing on microing his units etc

"a simple example: in a 20 minute game where the bm gets many criticals in the beginning, its most likely that he wont get much afterwards till its "compensated", so that the 20 min game contains the amount of critical percentage which are written in the skill description."

Did you even read it yourself? It is the other way around, every time you hit a non critical strike, the probability will rise that the next attack will crit. And when you will finally crit, the probability will go back to the original value (and starts rising again with every hit). This doesn't have anything to do with time and it rather compansates the lack of crits, not the amount of them.

Wonder if some of the players actually know this because this pretty much explains why the hero focusing with bm works so well. You are evantually guaranteed to crit.

@sanix
@trappedunderice
yes you're right. sorry for misinformation. that was my interpretation of an example by someone else who posted this site before. it just looked trustable and i posted it here right away.

@ Zechs
could you do something about it? maybe deleting that irritating example and write your own, then put your name above and write something like "added by Zechs"

@ topic
i agree with kramerc. just personally don't like luck factors, even if it would be replaced with a boring solution like 7th hit critical.

Remove this when attacking heroes (or remove it completely) and put a short cooldown on it when attacking heroes and we have a balanced blademaster. Then you'd have to be insanely lucky to rape heroes with consecutive crits.

ups the link which you provided consist the word "dota" sorry i'm not sure that i wanna check it out ;xx

Those 20min are a very bad example and having nothing to do with the mentioned website. It's just a misintepretation by you... The programers just wanted to avoid, that you hit 30 times without a crit etc.

what kramerc said, there is way too much luck involved in wc3

Toxiii is also absolutely right, a guaranteed crit is so easy to abuse.

I know this won't be a popular opinion, but i don't think there IS too much luck in WC3. If the game is so luck based, how can you possibly have one overpowered hero, or race? You can't have your cake and eat it: EITHER the game is imbalanced, or its luck-based, the two things are mutually exclusive.

Never the less, I agree that the BM probably needs a nerf, but giving him just another pure damage ability would be boring, and not really what Blizzard is about. Kramer you didn't really answer the important part of my comment, which was how is 'extra damage every 8th attack' REALLY different from 'you deal extra damage when you come out of WW'?

A better way imo, and one what keeps some level of uniqueness about the hero (which is far more important than luck in terms of enjoyment) is something like the so-called "hidden cooldowns" in WoW. I won't bore you too much with the details, but some items which are proc-based have an internal cooldown, meaning they can only happen once every 45 seconds or whatever.

If you play WoW and understand this idea, the meta gem 'mystical skyfire diamond' is the best example.

yeah, just like a guaranteed coil, imagine , early tier 2, you got a dk, you suspect someone is creeping and BAM, you coil, wow incredible abuse. oh wait happens every game. ;D

1) coil doesn't scale with claws/orb
2) coil costs mana, crit can be used indefinitely.
3) i thought u were supposed to hate BM too :(

(PS. not that i hate BM, just saying :P)

T_T at edit timer.

4)Anyway, the point is that adding yet another direct damage spell is boring. There are enough of those in the game already.

i got the point already was just mocking to see a little bit more of whine, this can probably be helpfull in 1 out of 3845 games, ofcoures you can just creep lvl 3, ofc the time to creep something that doesnt matter, and ofc you will make sure you get a few hits no crits to ofc make sure you straight away after 4 non crit hits you run to enemy who is ofc creeping with a ofc low hp hero which you will hit ofc with ww to ofc crit straight after and he has ofc no heal no staff no coil no tp no invul to ofc die straight away :D, the idea is nice ofc but ask yourself how often you can just creep some for fun, to uploda your crit odds and also make sure that its worth it?...

you make it sounds like it would happen very rarely, yeah right. Definately that scenario with the BM and WW CJ at half/lowhp hero happens 50% of the orcs game, well most of orcs game I watch or play prob more like 80-100%.

BM is imba as it it, making crit every 7 hit would sure be less luck based in big fights, but more imba other times.

anyways Crit can be avoided with invul pots etc, but the WW running at max speed trough anything is retarded and noobish, change windwalk, either take away the invis factor, ie can run trough units, and get more movementspeed and 1 hit more dmg without the invisibility, or take away the run trough unit factor ie you can surround an invis BM and it cant flee as easily.

i didnt try to make you look dumb, take it easy, its a interesting new thing indeed but i dont see it being of any use

i see your example, ke then you have a bash, would that bash decide the game in the start of a new fight? ;P

@Zechs
Kramer you didn't really answer the important part of my comment, which was how is 'extra damage every 8th attack' REALLY different from 'you deal extra damage when you come out of WW'?

Extra damage (crit) every 7th attack (15% x 7 = 105%, so something close to 100%). I fail to see how it would be any different from what it is now or even why it should be different. BM is a damage dealing hero, that's what he does, he gets extra damage from his spells. It's just a design option whether it's called 15% chance to do a critical strike or 7th hit is a critical strike and it doesn't influence the game AT ALL in the long-run except by removing an unnecessary luck factor.

And about the abuse part, I reckon it MIGHT happen but it's rare that a player gets the time to do whatever he wants for 30 seconds in a high level game, without the opponent knowing or doing something that would benefit him during that time. And that usually happens early game where, pardon me, a 30-40 damage bonus for a critical strike is not that much.

In before undead has no passive % skill on their heroes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8oJ1ZqFgUk&feature=related
bash is also nice

Rofl, sucks you can't hire bash creeps :D

Man those commentators were annoying in that vid. Still hilarious though ;D

forums.dota-allstars.com

No, THX