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Cldrn: New (but old) maps of hell
The Cauldron takes a look at the additions of mirage and forge to the competitive map pool and why this is the wrong approach to bringing progress to the world of CS.
By Duncan 'Thorin' Shields
Jul 15, 2011 02:55
The Cauldron takes a look at the additions of mirage and forge to the competitive map pool and why this is the wrong approach to bringing progress to the world of CS."The Cauldron" is a column which addresses topical concerns, expresses opinions not represented elsewhere or holds court on matters which have been bubbling away inside me.
The news is out and the fix is in. Counter-Strike competition worldwide will see the addition of mirage and forge to the map pool as Dreamhack, ESL, WCG, ESWC and e-Stars have all made a pact to introduce those maps all at once to competitive play. Immediately the social media world was alight with people throwing out words like "progress" and phrases like "CS needs this" as though it were self-evident that these maps were harbingers of some new golden age of CS. Indeed the implication was even that we currently live in some kind of dark age which has long needed to be brought to an end.
Far from it in my opinion. Counter-Strike has never been as rich, varied, entertaining and exciting as it is right now since the change from 1.3. The number of different styles which can find success and be effective right now as well as the number of countries with teams which are able to gain some degree of competitive status is inspiring and delightful to experience. Yet along come those who would know better than you or I and who have decided mirage and forge are part of the future of Counter-Strike. I'll go into my main reasons as to why I think this is entirely the wrong approach to introducing new maps to the map pool.
1. CS doesn't need new maps, it needs good maps
People seem to be operating under the assumption that new is always better. They haven't just said that it would be nice to add some more maps to the map pool, rather they've said they had CS "needs" it and that this is progress. Not all maps are suitable for competitive play at the highest level. Is that really something which needed to be stated? By the same logic of something new being good then adding in terrible old maps like prodigy and aztec would have merit, just as would adding in newer abominations like the Arbalet sponsored hell or ESEA crapfest lite.
Not only are those maps not good but they're also not better than the maps we already have in the map pool, that's why their inclusion would not be a good thing. The same applies to forge and mirage. It's not that CS needs new maps, it needs good maps. If a map is good then it doesn't matter how old it is, it should be played. The only circumstance in which that is not true is if a better map can be found to replace it, which we'll get to later.
forge and mirage have not shown themselves to be good maps by any stretch of the imagination. Everytime a high level matchup at Dreamhack has been drawn on mirage there has a tangible sense of how underwhelming that matchup then became. When SK faced fnatic in Group B who wouldn't have rather seen them play that out on train, nuke or inferno? When Na`Vi met mTw in Group A who wouldn't have preferred to see them fighting it out on train, tuscan or inferno?
Those scenarios were annoying but at least they were only group stage games in an event which isn't considered on the level of the IEM WC, ESWC or WCG. Now imagine the world which is coming with mirage and forge in the map pools of all of those tournaments. Consider the possibility which now exists of major international tournaments with huge implications on players' CS legacies being decided on mirage or forge as the final map of a Bo3 final.
Sure both teams could agree to throw each of those maps during the selection process but that's not a good thing, that's essentially the teams admitting those maps are terrible and not appropriate to play in a final. If those are good maps then teams should allow them to remain in the map pool and potentially be picked. This is actually a completely unique, and terrifying, situation which CS has never encountered before. Even tournaments such as the CPL which featured maps players did not agree with or like for a number of years, from old maps like aztec to their own creations like fire, never made the mistake of allowing the finals or the most significant matches to be played out on those maps. The upper bracket finals, lower bracket finals and grand finals were always played out on one of the four agreed good maps (nuke, train, inferno and dust2)
Think back to Na`Vi vs. mTw in the WCG 2010 Final and now imagine that third map isn't train but forge instead. Still as epic? Still as exciting? Still as interesting as you know both teams extensive histories on the map, their strengths, their weaknesses and how they matchup? Of course not. To even suggest that would be silly.
If a new map is not good then an older map which has been proven time and time again to be good (such as one of the original four) is a better choice. To play the bad map instead of the good map purely because the bad map is new is not progress of any kind, in fact quite the opposite.
2. Add maps with potential, don't polish turds.
You know that old and crude, but logical, saying that you can't polish a turd? This is an area that most definitely applies. It's one thing for teams to be unfamiliar with a map and simply to not have realised how good it is due to not practicing it at all. In such a scenario there could be a case made for playing such a map. It's a completely separate issue though if teams have played maps and those maps have shown to be lacking in potential and not capable of showcasing high level Counter-Strike. This is where forge and mirage fall flat on their faces. forge was used in a number of CEVO seasons online and the matches showed no promise that this was a map with potential for showing the best of what CS competition can be. Add in that forge is simply a reworked version of cbble, one of the worst maps of all time, and little more need be said regarding that map.
mirage is a reworked version of strike, a CPL map from 2004. Again that map was used in online play, and even in the early rounds of CPL Winter 2004, but was shown to be something of a joke map without real promise. The tweaks made to mirage have not improved matters much at all. This isn't a discussion of the specific structural failures of each of those maps so I will forgo those in favour of sticking to points of the philosophy and logic behind the decision to include them in our map pools.
The problem here is not adding new maps which nobody knows and thus might be good. The problem is adding old maps which didn't show any promise and thus would be borderline miraclous if they somehow turned out to be worthwhile maps. What is magically going to be discovered about either map that wasn't already in those years of play which will make them entertaining, competitive and capable of showcasing high levels of skill?
If we're going to have new maps then let's have maps which actually are new and have some potential to them. Remember ESL telling us they had spent €500,000 on their new anti-cheat system? Can none of these organisations afford a few hundred dollars to get a new map made which fits competitive play and can be playtested by top tier teams? Apparently the answer is no, and instead they must go rummaging through the drawers for two bad old maps with new makeup jobs to present to the public as some drastic new breakthrough for CS.
You can take an average map and potentially make it a little better by grinding off the rough edges and tweaking a few areas to make it more dynamic. You can't take a bad map and make it good. The failed concepts, structural flaws and lack of suitable dynamics are what makes a map bad and there is not enough ingenuity in this world to counteract all of those issues. Not to mention that level of effort and thought would be better put towards making a good map from scratch.
3. There is no time for these maps to improve.

There is an argument which is heard often whenever some drastic change is made which is essentially an appeal to "give it time" as though just allowing some time to pass will let the new thing flourish into some incredible asset none of us had been able to appreciate before. The problem here is that that is not how CS maps work. Let's first of all consider the current map pool of CS: nuke, inferno, train, dust2 and tuscan. Take out tuscan for a moment, since it was added years after the others, and we're left with what I'd call the 'original four good maps'. Four maps which have been proven for a decade to be the maps which best showcased skill, strategy and teamplay in competitive Counter-Strike tournaments.
These maps did not take time to be acknowledged as the best suited maps, they did not need room to breathe or people to be forced to practice them. They existed from the beginning of Counter-Strike's time as the main competitive LAN game (late 2001) and were always the maps players and fans wanted to see played in the big games. Despite events like the CPL running large map pools containing the likes of prodigy, aztec, cbble, fire and mill these were the maps people knew from day 1 were the best maps. Each map has retained its side baises since the beginning of competive play, most of the original effective tactics still work in an entertaining and dynamic way and all of them have shown room for hundreds of other approaches or sub-tactics which have helped keep them alive as the best maps in CS history.
The approach was never to throw these maps at people one day and tell them they had to play them and that they would help CS. The map pool was huge and people eventually got sick of seeing games played on poorly suited maps, think of the much anticipated NiP vs. SK.swe on cbble at CPL Winter 2005, and thus progress came in the form of reducing the map pool and throwing out the bad maps. Fancy that: throwing out bad maps and sticking with really good maps which showcase the best of what CS has to offer.
Then along came tuscan. Now here is a good example of a map being introduced in the correct way. First of all tuscan is a reworked version of mill which, due to copyright reasons, could not be used in non-CPL tournaments. mill was one of the few maps added to the map pool that did not come with Counter-Strike by default which actually managed to establish itself as an ok addition, though I would certainly not consider it on the level of train, nuke or inferno. The main reason European teams initially did not like mill was because they were forced to play it in tournaments in the lower bracket despite the fact nobody outside of America ever played/practiced the map since it was only used in CAL and CPL. When teams actually played and practiced it more than once per tournament they found it was a decent map, nothing spectacular but capable of hosting competitive games.
Association with the CPL kept mill out of other tournament pools but the creation of tuscan, and its use in EPS, allowed it to eventually join the map pool and create a five map pool, which also allowed the era of our current selection system for Bo3s. The key thing to note there is not that mill had been played and its potential had not been developed because in fact it wasn't until it had been played that its potential was developed. forge and mirage have both been played enough, especially adding in the histories of cbble and strike, that this is not the same scenario at all. Teams have played the matches and the outcomes were not at all impressive.
So which is it? Is CS dying or do we have 2-3 more years for these maps to show their supposed merit? Let's also mention, to close this point out, that even if those maps did somehow show some merit and worth what are the chances they will prove to be more suited than maps like nuke, train or inferno, which could have been played but weren't due to forge or mirage being selected? Is that risk really worth it for the sake of adding them in and calling it progress?
4. If a maps is good enough then replace another map with it.
If a new map is good enough then there's no reason to keep the old map at all. Let's remove that map and play the new good map. If we want CS to progress, whatever that actually means, and we have to change maps then let's find good maps and replace the old ones with them. That was the problem you claimed right? That we were still playing the old maps? Of course that doesn't work whatsoever since firstly nobody is suggesting maps which are good enough, even under the criteria of the old maps which immediately showed themselves to be excellent. So we can't replace those old maps, instead we keep the old maps and add in these new crap maps. That's essentially an admission that those maps aren't better than even one of the old maps. If that's the case then why are we playing them at all?
5. There needs to be a system to the selection and a structure to the map pool.
If it were only down to me I could make a case for an even smaller map pool which in my opinion would increase the excellence required to win major tournaments. Of course it isn't only down to me and I am not married to the idea that there can never be more than 3-4 good maps for competition. There needs to be a structure though. That will require constant creation of maps so that each time a tournament is set to change the pool it has the option of 4-5 new maps, which have all been playtested, from which to select a new map or two. Then these can injected into the map pool, with the two least important maps being removed each time. If we had two new maps which showed promise I would have no problem giving up dust2 and tuscan, maps which have proven to lean too much to variable results and the better team winning less often, in favour of giving them a try.
Look at a game like Brood War where the leagues themselves are involved in having maps developed by professionals and then each season they tweak their map pools. Sure, sometimes a map proves not to work at all but at least it can then be removed and replaced with a different map. On top of that there are always a few maps in the pool which everyone knows works and can produce stellar matchups. It's not enough to simply foist two maps on us and tell us they have to work and there's no two ways about it. This needs to be a system which adapts to competitive play as it continues to evolve.
Conclusion
When I think of the great finals and series of all time I can look back across ten years of CS and despite changes in the evolution of competitive play, versions of CS and the talent pool of competitors I can find a stablising force in knowing these finals took place on the best suited maps in CS. In this way there is a legitimacy about AGAiN defeating fnatic on nuke and train in the WCG 2009 final in the same way there was when NiP beat X3 on nuke in the CPL Winter 2001 final.

When I see an incredible FX terrorist side nuke performance I can contrast and compare it to the way SK.swe of 2003 broke down that side of the map. When a team like Na`Vi comes along and showcases godlike train CT play I can think back to the mTw team of 2009 dismantling MYM.pl 15-0 on their CT side and see the way the game has developed and the Na`Vi players have picked up influences, consciously or subconsciously, from the past.
With new, and bad, maps added to the map pool all of this is lost. You're not going to look at n0thing playing a spot on forge and be able to think back to the hundreds of top players who have played that spot before him effectively and immerse yourself in that rich and intoxicating history simultaneous to watching a player in the here and now try to make that spot work for him.
If we were giving all of that up for some maps which had the potential to become even greater, or at least as good, and take the game to a higher lever in every respect then perhaps the gamble would be worth it. But for forge and mirage? To potentially let a major event be decided on two discarded bad maps with new lipstick and a facelift? Shame on anyone who would give up what makes Counter-Strike great in the hopes of grasping at the miniscule chance of some hereto imagined progress.
The news is out and the fix is in. Counter-Strike competition worldwide will see the addition of mirage and forge to the map pool as Dreamhack, ESL, WCG, ESWC and e-Stars have all made a pact to introduce those maps all at once to competitive play. Immediately the social media world was alight with people throwing out words like "progress" and phrases like "CS needs this" as though it were self-evident that these maps were harbingers of some new golden age of CS. Indeed the implication was even that we currently live in some kind of dark age which has long needed to be brought to an end.
Far from it in my opinion. Counter-Strike has never been as rich, varied, entertaining and exciting as it is right now since the change from 1.3. The number of different styles which can find success and be effective right now as well as the number of countries with teams which are able to gain some degree of competitive status is inspiring and delightful to experience. Yet along come those who would know better than you or I and who have decided mirage and forge are part of the future of Counter-Strike. I'll go into my main reasons as to why I think this is entirely the wrong approach to introducing new maps to the map pool.
1. CS doesn't need new maps, it needs good maps
People seem to be operating under the assumption that new is always better. They haven't just said that it would be nice to add some more maps to the map pool, rather they've said they had CS "needs" it and that this is progress. Not all maps are suitable for competitive play at the highest level. Is that really something which needed to be stated? By the same logic of something new being good then adding in terrible old maps like prodigy and aztec would have merit, just as would adding in newer abominations like the Arbalet sponsored hell or ESEA crapfest lite.
Not only are those maps not good but they're also not better than the maps we already have in the map pool, that's why their inclusion would not be a good thing. The same applies to forge and mirage. It's not that CS needs new maps, it needs good maps. If a map is good then it doesn't matter how old it is, it should be played. The only circumstance in which that is not true is if a better map can be found to replace it, which we'll get to later.
forge and mirage have not shown themselves to be good maps by any stretch of the imagination. Everytime a high level matchup at Dreamhack has been drawn on mirage there has a tangible sense of how underwhelming that matchup then became. When SK faced fnatic in Group B who wouldn't have rather seen them play that out on train, nuke or inferno? When Na`Vi met mTw in Group A who wouldn't have preferred to see them fighting it out on train, tuscan or inferno?Those scenarios were annoying but at least they were only group stage games in an event which isn't considered on the level of the IEM WC, ESWC or WCG. Now imagine the world which is coming with mirage and forge in the map pools of all of those tournaments. Consider the possibility which now exists of major international tournaments with huge implications on players' CS legacies being decided on mirage or forge as the final map of a Bo3 final.
Sure both teams could agree to throw each of those maps during the selection process but that's not a good thing, that's essentially the teams admitting those maps are terrible and not appropriate to play in a final. If those are good maps then teams should allow them to remain in the map pool and potentially be picked. This is actually a completely unique, and terrifying, situation which CS has never encountered before. Even tournaments such as the CPL which featured maps players did not agree with or like for a number of years, from old maps like aztec to their own creations like fire, never made the mistake of allowing the finals or the most significant matches to be played out on those maps. The upper bracket finals, lower bracket finals and grand finals were always played out on one of the four agreed good maps (nuke, train, inferno and dust2)
Think back to Na`Vi vs. mTw in the WCG 2010 Final and now imagine that third map isn't train but forge instead. Still as epic? Still as exciting? Still as interesting as you know both teams extensive histories on the map, their strengths, their weaknesses and how they matchup? Of course not. To even suggest that would be silly.
"Think back to Na`Vi vs. mTw in the WCG 2010 final and now imagine that third map isn't train but forge instead. Still as epic? Still as exciting?"
Now how about the final of the IEM III Global Final in which fnatic were crowned World Champions and began their amazing 2009 run thanks to a tense and thrilling victory over MYM.pl on nuke in which both teams completely inverted the biases of the map with phenomenal terrorist play. Go back and mentally replace that map with mirage instead. Still one of the best finals ever? A worthy environment to decide a matchup between two of the all time great lineups in a major final? I think not.If a new map is not good then an older map which has been proven time and time again to be good (such as one of the original four) is a better choice. To play the bad map instead of the good map purely because the bad map is new is not progress of any kind, in fact quite the opposite.
2. Add maps with potential, don't polish turds.
You know that old and crude, but logical, saying that you can't polish a turd? This is an area that most definitely applies. It's one thing for teams to be unfamiliar with a map and simply to not have realised how good it is due to not practicing it at all. In such a scenario there could be a case made for playing such a map. It's a completely separate issue though if teams have played maps and those maps have shown to be lacking in potential and not capable of showcasing high level Counter-Strike. This is where forge and mirage fall flat on their faces. forge was used in a number of CEVO seasons online and the matches showed no promise that this was a map with potential for showing the best of what CS competition can be. Add in that forge is simply a reworked version of cbble, one of the worst maps of all time, and little more need be said regarding that map.
mirage is a reworked version of strike, a CPL map from 2004. Again that map was used in online play, and even in the early rounds of CPL Winter 2004, but was shown to be something of a joke map without real promise. The tweaks made to mirage have not improved matters much at all. This isn't a discussion of the specific structural failures of each of those maps so I will forgo those in favour of sticking to points of the philosophy and logic behind the decision to include them in our map pools.
"The problem here is not adding new maps which nobody knows and thus might be good. The problem is adding old maps which didn't show any promise and thus would be borderline miraclous if they somehow turned out to be worthwhile maps."
The problem here is not adding new maps which nobody knows and thus might be good. The problem is adding old maps which didn't show any promise and thus would be borderline miraclous if they somehow turned out to be worthwhile maps. What is magically going to be discovered about either map that wasn't already in those years of play which will make them entertaining, competitive and capable of showcasing high levels of skill?
If we're going to have new maps then let's have maps which actually are new and have some potential to them. Remember ESL telling us they had spent €500,000 on their new anti-cheat system? Can none of these organisations afford a few hundred dollars to get a new map made which fits competitive play and can be playtested by top tier teams? Apparently the answer is no, and instead they must go rummaging through the drawers for two bad old maps with new makeup jobs to present to the public as some drastic new breakthrough for CS.
You can take an average map and potentially make it a little better by grinding off the rough edges and tweaking a few areas to make it more dynamic. You can't take a bad map and make it good. The failed concepts, structural flaws and lack of suitable dynamics are what makes a map bad and there is not enough ingenuity in this world to counteract all of those issues. Not to mention that level of effort and thought would be better put towards making a good map from scratch.
3. There is no time for these maps to improve.

There is an argument which is heard often whenever some drastic change is made which is essentially an appeal to "give it time" as though just allowing some time to pass will let the new thing flourish into some incredible asset none of us had been able to appreciate before. The problem here is that that is not how CS maps work. Let's first of all consider the current map pool of CS: nuke, inferno, train, dust2 and tuscan. Take out tuscan for a moment, since it was added years after the others, and we're left with what I'd call the 'original four good maps'. Four maps which have been proven for a decade to be the maps which best showcased skill, strategy and teamplay in competitive Counter-Strike tournaments.
These maps did not take time to be acknowledged as the best suited maps, they did not need room to breathe or people to be forced to practice them. They existed from the beginning of Counter-Strike's time as the main competitive LAN game (late 2001) and were always the maps players and fans wanted to see played in the big games. Despite events like the CPL running large map pools containing the likes of prodigy, aztec, cbble, fire and mill these were the maps people knew from day 1 were the best maps. Each map has retained its side baises since the beginning of competive play, most of the original effective tactics still work in an entertaining and dynamic way and all of them have shown room for hundreds of other approaches or sub-tactics which have helped keep them alive as the best maps in CS history.
The approach was never to throw these maps at people one day and tell them they had to play them and that they would help CS. The map pool was huge and people eventually got sick of seeing games played on poorly suited maps, think of the much anticipated NiP vs. SK.swe on cbble at CPL Winter 2005, and thus progress came in the form of reducing the map pool and throwing out the bad maps. Fancy that: throwing out bad maps and sticking with really good maps which showcase the best of what CS has to offer.
"The map pool was huge and people eventually got sick of seeing games played on poorly suited maps, think of the much anticipated NiP vs. SK.swe on cbble at CPL Winter 2005"
Then along came tuscan. Now here is a good example of a map being introduced in the correct way. First of all tuscan is a reworked version of mill which, due to copyright reasons, could not be used in non-CPL tournaments. mill was one of the few maps added to the map pool that did not come with Counter-Strike by default which actually managed to establish itself as an ok addition, though I would certainly not consider it on the level of train, nuke or inferno. The main reason European teams initially did not like mill was because they were forced to play it in tournaments in the lower bracket despite the fact nobody outside of America ever played/practiced the map since it was only used in CAL and CPL. When teams actually played and practiced it more than once per tournament they found it was a decent map, nothing spectacular but capable of hosting competitive games.
Association with the CPL kept mill out of other tournament pools but the creation of tuscan, and its use in EPS, allowed it to eventually join the map pool and create a five map pool, which also allowed the era of our current selection system for Bo3s. The key thing to note there is not that mill had been played and its potential had not been developed because in fact it wasn't until it had been played that its potential was developed. forge and mirage have both been played enough, especially adding in the histories of cbble and strike, that this is not the same scenario at all. Teams have played the matches and the outcomes were not at all impressive.
"So which is it? Is CS dying or do we have 2-3 more years for these maps to show their supposed merit?"
Now let's add in a final piece of context to colour our perspective on the time these maps can be given: CS' future is not certain. Personally I do not subscribe to the opinion that CS will, and has to, die in the near future. I think a lot of that is misguided cynicism, frustration with the success of newer games or people who are spinning their own self-fulfilling prophecies. Nevertheless it is many of the same people who have been telling you every year "this is CS' last year" that are now telling you that the addition of these maps is a good thing and that we should "give them time". What time would that be? If you're telling me CS will be dead in one year then there isn't any time for these maps to flourish and become ingrained enough for advanced tactical understandings to be brought to them and fleshed out, if that is even possible.So which is it? Is CS dying or do we have 2-3 more years for these maps to show their supposed merit? Let's also mention, to close this point out, that even if those maps did somehow show some merit and worth what are the chances they will prove to be more suited than maps like nuke, train or inferno, which could have been played but weren't due to forge or mirage being selected? Is that risk really worth it for the sake of adding them in and calling it progress?
4. If a maps is good enough then replace another map with it.
If a new map is good enough then there's no reason to keep the old map at all. Let's remove that map and play the new good map. If we want CS to progress, whatever that actually means, and we have to change maps then let's find good maps and replace the old ones with them. That was the problem you claimed right? That we were still playing the old maps? Of course that doesn't work whatsoever since firstly nobody is suggesting maps which are good enough, even under the criteria of the old maps which immediately showed themselves to be excellent. So we can't replace those old maps, instead we keep the old maps and add in these new crap maps. That's essentially an admission that those maps aren't better than even one of the old maps. If that's the case then why are we playing them at all?
5. There needs to be a system to the selection and a structure to the map pool.
If it were only down to me I could make a case for an even smaller map pool which in my opinion would increase the excellence required to win major tournaments. Of course it isn't only down to me and I am not married to the idea that there can never be more than 3-4 good maps for competition. There needs to be a structure though. That will require constant creation of maps so that each time a tournament is set to change the pool it has the option of 4-5 new maps, which have all been playtested, from which to select a new map or two. Then these can injected into the map pool, with the two least important maps being removed each time. If we had two new maps which showed promise I would have no problem giving up dust2 and tuscan, maps which have proven to lean too much to variable results and the better team winning less often, in favour of giving them a try.
Look at a game like Brood War where the leagues themselves are involved in having maps developed by professionals and then each season they tweak their map pools. Sure, sometimes a map proves not to work at all but at least it can then be removed and replaced with a different map. On top of that there are always a few maps in the pool which everyone knows works and can produce stellar matchups. It's not enough to simply foist two maps on us and tell us they have to work and there's no two ways about it. This needs to be a system which adapts to competitive play as it continues to evolve.
"Once a map proves to have potential for play at the highest level then it can be introduced to the international LAN circuit."
If new maps are going to be introduced then how about the worldwide leagues introducing them first, not the major international LANs. EPS, ESEA and the like would be the appropriate place to test these maps out. Places where teams will practice a map for an upcoming opponent and games still mean enough to make them play seriously but not too much that a bad map can completely ruin the legacy a specific tournament has. Once a map proves to have potential for play at the highest level then it can be introduced to the international LAN circuit. That would be real progress.Conclusion
When I think of the great finals and series of all time I can look back across ten years of CS and despite changes in the evolution of competitive play, versions of CS and the talent pool of competitors I can find a stablising force in knowing these finals took place on the best suited maps in CS. In this way there is a legitimacy about AGAiN defeating fnatic on nuke and train in the WCG 2009 final in the same way there was when NiP beat X3 on nuke in the CPL Winter 2001 final.

When I see an incredible FX terrorist side nuke performance I can contrast and compare it to the way SK.swe of 2003 broke down that side of the map. When a team like Na`Vi comes along and showcases godlike train CT play I can think back to the mTw team of 2009 dismantling MYM.pl 15-0 on their CT side and see the way the game has developed and the Na`Vi players have picked up influences, consciously or subconsciously, from the past.
With new, and bad, maps added to the map pool all of this is lost. You're not going to look at n0thing playing a spot on forge and be able to think back to the hundreds of top players who have played that spot before him effectively and immerse yourself in that rich and intoxicating history simultaneous to watching a player in the here and now try to make that spot work for him.
If we were giving all of that up for some maps which had the potential to become even greater, or at least as good, and take the game to a higher lever in every respect then perhaps the gamble would be worth it. But for forge and mirage? To potentially let a major event be decided on two discarded bad maps with new lipstick and a facelift? Shame on anyone who would give up what makes Counter-Strike great in the hopes of grasping at the miniscule chance of some hereto imagined progress.
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"Think back to Na`Vi vs. mTw in the WCG 2010 final and now imagine that third map isn't train but forge instead. Still as epic? Still as exciting?"
My answer is YES !!!!!!!!!!!!!
Na`Vi vs mTw or top teams combat , whatever maps, I still stay awake till 5A.M to enjoy watching, like I've been doing for 8 years and counting :D
Also, what if the final map was nuke? Na`vi on nuke against mTw. Yea that woulda been really epic right?
Its not the MAP. Its the TEAM.
I'm not referring the time right now. We are talking about WCG 2010 not 2011(and still they didnt win a single nuke match against any good teams). If they played on nuke, it wouldnt have been any interesting since its pretty obvious mTw would have beat Na`Vi easily. Na`Vi practicing Nuke right now isn't any close to my point.
PS. Of course they refuse to play new maps. They would have to analyze and try new and different stuff to actually figure out the way of playing the map. Who would want to do that when theres already maps that you know how to play correctly. That's is the REASON WHY tournaments are forcing these maps in. That's the only way. The teams will realize they would have to practice those maps in order to win the tournaments. Or they can just blame the MAP. "Oh, bo3 was on mirage forge and tuscan. We lost but we are the better team cause we can beat them on any other map" AFTER LOSING THE TOURNAMENT? If thats the case we are going to see, dont even try to refer this game as a sport.
We as a community often say that we want new maps, but at the end of the day I think we will always come back to the ones that made us love the game. Mill/Tuscan has made its way in, but it seems like people still regard that as an extra map. Knowing every single corner of a map is vital in CS and I don't see forge or mirage (or any other map for that matter) making much of an impact - I don't think it matters if you make the best eSports-map of all time, it won't change the fact that people have spent their whole career playing the original 4.
But I believe they already have one.
AND: they can put the maps if they want, in fact, they did, we can agree or disagree with that desicion, but its already on.
If we all support this desicion, eventually if these maps are bad, they won't be played anymore.
today we have an awper like markeloff.
Try to plant the bomb on B site in de_mirage with this guy standing in the other corner of the biggest bombsite ever.
thats a merit. I don't know if that is "progress" but I think its a try.
And I think that Dreamhack, ESL, WCG, ESWC and e-Stars won't make a step to ruin the game, couse obviusly that won't work out for them. The amount of spectators in the matches are huge, so I think they are adding maps that they think will work out to keep this spectators and to keep/improve the competitive level.
They may be wrong, of course, but if you don't give a try, then we'll never know.
Nobody owns the true, will have to wait and see.
If these maps are "bad" to CS, next year you won't even remember this coment.
comparing to Starcaft Broodwar in Korean, The Kespa announce new maps every seasons (not all of them are perfect) but It keeps the tournament more exciting and attractive !
if they add mirrage np , but forge ? O_O
eSTRO at that time pretty much didnt even know the map that well, given the fact it was pretty much their first time playing that map in a major tournament.
Was the match itself entertaining? Yes. I would say it was a very good match.
I dont think there is a "good" map or a "bad" map. Maybe unbalanced. Just like train.
I believe the important part is the understandings of the map and interpreting the correct way of playing the map.
P.S. ESEA crapfest lite? de_lite is actually pretty decent map.(also couple NA top players gave their insight, they made the fix)
It wasn't entertaining at all?
If a match of 16-13 wasn't that entertaining. Okay, I don't know how great of a match you expect for every match.
We've seen so many matches that one team gets to the match point and couldn't close it.
eSTRO that time was famous for their momentum. If they were on fire, they were unstoppable which they managed to do it towards the end of the match.
This match we are talking about went to the point, where MYM gets to the match point early but then eSTRO gets on fire taking it to 15-13 on an eco round for MYM.
Not entertaining enough? AT ALL?
I agree with points 1., 2., and 3. though. Adding maps for the sake of adding maps is pretty bad unless they're actually quality maps. I dont necessarily agree completely with the "you cant polish a turd" saying, as its my personal opinion that it would actually be possible to make cbble, aztec, etc competitively viable and good maps and theres nothing really wrong with attempting it (although for the time-being the saying is true as it is yet to be done successfully). The additional advantage of remaking an old map is that they will be relatively familiar to teams and players so the time they need to adjust and actually learn the map layout will be significantly less, which means they can move on to actually building strats and becoming competitive on it earlier and faster. BUT I do agree that de_forge is literally the definition of a polished turd - so much so that it is probably even worse than the turd it started out as (cbble). I really think that the basic layout of cpl_strike has some merit though and that mirage borders on a suitable map for competition and definitely deserves a chance.
Regarding point 5. - As for the major tournaments adding the map instead of minor leagues around the world adding them first to test - I think there are advantages/disadvantages to both. You already went over the advantages of leagues adding it first, but a clear massive advantage of simply throwing teams in the deep end as it were by adding them to all major tournaments (eswc, iem, estars, etc) is that it without a doubt forces the team to practice the new maps and put as much effort into them, if not more, as they would the standard 5. If they were placed in leagues first I would almost gaurantee that the majority of teams would at BEST have a look at the map, play it a couple times and then wing it on the day as it doesnt mean anything, but if its literally every major tournament in the year (bar WCG) then you can bet ur ass they'll be praccing them. All in all great article.
Today I continue to see the professionals compete. but the game is also a market and I think the Cs even the professional level does not give as much money as before.
Before the Dreamhack, EMI, and in many other tournaments never knew who would win, was more competitive. nowadays everyone knows that the SK will win. just only two teams have the ability to compete with them. MTW and Na'Vi.
Fnatic just have a good captain, to me the best thinker of cs, the guy never falters.
What I mean by this is that every time there is less of cs players who want to move on, and strive to be someone in this game
Now, and for some years that will see the League of Legends , despite all the problems at European level RIOT, but everything will be fine.
I hope no one disagrees that much of what I said here.
d2, nuke, and so on, weren't good from the start as you claim. They were good after years of games on these maps. Just to make you remeber "good old days", about every de_ map was once played in a competitive way. Not at an international level, true. But firstly, cs was national and when international events happened, they just took the "more played" maps.
That was just my "plus": even the 4 maps weren't directly seen as the best ones. therefore you can't just say a map has to be accepted at once.
+1
I do not agree, make the teams practise some new maps, I swear too god it will get more entertaining watching more then 3-4 maps each tournament.
Or whe take all the old maps and make new textures and rename them that would be kind of interesting.
i totally enjoyed watching teams play on mirage at dreamhack, even teams i'm not interested in usually.
it was a nice breath of fresh air to see something new, which lacks big time in cs 1.6
and i don't see where mirage is not a good and promising map.
of course the old classic maps are great, but their time is simply over.
everything has been seen on them, their potential has been maxed and it's time to move on to experience something new.
there are other maps too that are really good and promising, like de_esl_autumn, great map which should get a chance (instead of forge).
but how can u say cbble is one of the worst maps of all time ?
of course its not the greatest, but it still provided some incredible stuff and really intense matches.
mouz vs col (some finals with element), mouz vs estro, spawn ninja defuse etc...
when there was something big on the line cbble could deliver great tense stuff.
but i agree that organisations need to invest in new good maps.
they won't fall off the sky with such an old game.
here you go
Personally I think the ONLY good map in CS is de_nuke.
What was it back in the days? dust2 - t-sided, inferno - ct-sided, train - HEAVILY ct-sided (of the map pool that is still being played)
Now it's down to the point "how good can team perform on either side". We've seen both teams securing more t-rounds on train, more ct-rounds on dust2, etc.
de_mirage, de_forge are very well balanced and scores can be 8-7 on both sides. And aren't those scores the reason to watch CS?
Secondly, I want to point out that if a player that is considered "pro", like lurppis, says his opinion, many people are taking it for granted. Do not. He's on the same ground as you on that matter. I can't even take this guy seriously after him making fun of a guy in a wheel-chair that played against him on LAN.
Great article. But since the only thing we can do is - talk about it - then I will simply say that tournament's organizers were a bit in a rush, Thorin had a really good hint on the way the maps should be tested (and eventually invented): the first test for them should be leagues and only then tournaments with big names, not in a reverse order :/
we can see new tactics and feel some fresh :D