That is definitely one of the facts, why i am playing racing games for SK and not Counter-Strike
http://www.sk-gaming.com/video/29197-HuskYs_CS_skills ;)

But I still can say, that games like Need for Speed and Project Gotham Racing, where you definitely use wallrides, shouldn't be called "realistic racing games". And exactly this is what some leagues, teams, players and even "experts" are doing!

World Cyber Games is gonna be the best example! You will see the "best virtual racing drivers" out of the world in Cologne this year, facing eachother 1vs1 in laggy Need for Speed langames, just crashing all the time, cutting the track, driving a short 5 minutes races and the winner is gonna be called "THE BEST RACING DRIVER"?
It's even ridiculous to see them driving with a steering wheel .....

Why shouldn't it be a bit more realistic? Driving in a Grid of 25 People, facing each other in thrilling battles (even in heavy rain) with a realistic collision mode and fighting together in a race which takes at least 20 Minutes?!

//discuss...

Besides the wallrides, grassrides and stuff - Need for Speed still requires skill. Wallriding is a skill, grassriding is a skill, entering a corner with space grade speed is ALSO a skill You need to learn. It may sound weird for You, but believe me - there's the same mechanism that works in ALL racing games. You first need to get to know Your car, set up it properly, then learn the track and find best driving line and try to learn to drive it stable. In NFS it's all the same :)

i never said that you need no skill for that, but you cant call NFS WCG Champion the best Racing Driver in the world. Roland Ehnström won the V-WTCC Final last weekend. You can call him the best virtual racing driver, but not a random wallriding arcade guy!
when i played nfs it was quite easy to learn and all the rest was just bug using...
but it aint racing at all ;o)

It's only a matter of using names. Who is best virtual driver in the world? The player who is best at arcade racing games, the one who is dominating the simracing or maybe a TrackMania champion? As long as there is no one stable platform for racing games U can't choose a definitive champion, player who can be so-called 'best racing driver in the world'. It's the same with real racing world. Many categories, many different classes and it is not so sure for me that the best are going straight to Formula 1 or rally :)

As for the Need for Speed gameplay yes, it is arcade, many crashes (when collisions are on), but U can't say that the race is boring itself :)

buuut in reallife there is no "world champion" or "best racer" title for illegal streetracing guys ;)

anyway, i know what you want to say - and i get it! But you have to understand what i feel when i can see sliv_r on german television/newspaper called best german virtual racer ..... and nobody cares about the intel racing tour champion, who is even driving against real racers ( like Timo Glock, Adrian Sutil, and a lot more ) in virtual Sim Racing Games....

World Cyber Games is the most prestigeous gaming event. Sliver is the champion of World Cyber Games. Ergo - he gets the cream. Who cares about cross-country run champion while Usain Bolt wins the Olympic 100m? Even if cross-country is maybe more difficult to compete :)

It's not about the game - the event creates the champions :)

and whats about the winner of an event, which is broadcasted on Eurosport to the whole world?
no one really cares about him in eSports, but why? no one wants to coverage anything about it, besides SK, but why? no one is really interested in sim racing, but why?

open your eyes and don't stick to games like Need for Speed or champions like sliv_r all the time...
surely, WCG is one of the biggest eSports tournaments, but whats about Intel Racing Tour, V-WTCC and all the other Sim Racing events....

when esports would accept those events in a way, then the complete racing scene would get a push into the right way.... but if we just stay there where we are now ... there is just one important tournament for racing in esports ... WCG @ NFS / PGR or ESWC @ Trackmania.

Sim-Racing does have so many big things .....

I haven't watched EuroSport recently - the V-WTCC was broadcasted live @ EuroSport 1 or EuroSport 2? Why? I will answer. Not many clans beside SK have the simracing divisions. Simracing is closed to few countries, with Germany having the biggest scene (as far as I reckognize) - for example, in Poland we don't have any bigger simracing tournaments, except for the SimRacing.pl rFactor Formula 1 leagues - but it's only online, no lans. So noone hears about it.

I'm sticked to Need for Speed for some reasons - one of them is that I play the game since Need for Speed II: Special Edition, and that's hell a lot of time :) It's like a sentiment I have for the series, even if the game is bad or bugged like ProStreet is, I still continue playing it. The second reason is the scene, which is great in Poland, maybe not too big, but very high level players, good tournaments (we have NFS tournament in every bigger LAN event), and the tournaments themselves are another reason why I am stuck to Need for Speed. I enjoy playing live, during a LAN, in front of a crowd. Playing offline brings some adrenaline, yes, but it's simply not the same :)

You know, SimRacing is a very specific niche. You need the best hardware (like Logitech G25) from the very beginning, and You begin being a total newbie owned by everyone, unable to get clear even a single lap. That is scaring off a bunch of players crushed by simracing games' difficulty level. It's not easy to spend, for example, 4-5 months for learning a game without any guarantee You can achieve success in it. You have to be really passionate and You who play simracing competetively ARE passionates. In NFS things are easier also because the game changes every year, so new players can easier catch up with old champions, every year we all start from the very beginning :)

About tournamets, like I said - You have Your own great tournaments with humongous prizes and attention (EuroSport!) - that's what every scene wants, to be showed widely OUTSIDE the esport scene :)

I guess the "fun" depends a bit on the players attitude, too. The youth nowadays like to pimp their cars and do illegal streetraces... Anyway i have played need for speed on a competitive level and honestly, on this level it's even more punishing you then a Simulation. Due to the short 5 minutes race, you just have to mess up one jump, (eventhough jumps in need for speed are mostly random) or you will get crashed by your opponent, when collision mode is on.

Aracde Games are labelled as Arcade Games, well, but many people are saying, that (especially the last part of) Need for Speed or Race Driver:GRID are simulations. I guess they never played one of the Sims! - Because they don't know them! ;)
Alternate|Sliv_r is one of the worldfamous NFS "Racing Drivers" and when you can read something in newspapers, community sites or just watching something on Television about him - he is always mentioned as the best virtual Racing Driver out of Germany! I don't want to critisize him (i know him and he is a really nice guy), but I want to critisize eSports in general. When I am winning a BMW M6 in a tournament, where 25.000 "players" participated in. No one really cares, comparing to Slivr winning the WCG again just by hitting some walls.

I have to agree, that Aracade Games are more "fun" for casual gamers, but is eSports just choosing games in this way? Warcraft III is even hard to watch for normal gamers. Racing is quite easy - the first who finishs, is the winner. Motorsports is so popular in Reallife ... and I think, when one of the biggest eSports tournaments (like WCG,ESWC,....), will get one of the Sims as their games - it will somehow get a bit acceptance in eSports.
But I guess it will never happen ._.

Esports dont pick them games because they're casual and easy to pick up no, Sponsors want them because they look stunning visually, and they are really well known, you ask a guy about Live for Speed, or then Need for Speed and Project Gotham Racing etc, which one is he gonna know? it's a visually stunning thing to watch, unfortunately Live for Speed is a small game by comparison, and it doesnt get ANY public coverage on gaming sites at all, just Esports sites, but not actual gaming sites, a good Racing Simulation game that gets good coverage is the GTR series, because it was quite succesful considering it is an actual Racing Simulation game, but Live for Speed I dont think will ever get that kinda coverage unfortunately ;(

Live for Speed is definitely a smaller game and still unknown. You are totally right!
But i haven't seen any esport site, which coveraged about the V-WTCC so far.
It's played with GTR Evolution (GTR should be the famous Sim - I agree!)
Eventhough the game is known, Gaming Sites are writing about it (and about the league!), Reallife Racers (Formula One Racers, WTCC . . .) are racing together with the virtual "Pros" and even Eurosport is broadcasting it - NO ONE in eSports really cares about it.

When "hero" joins a german late night show for 5 minutes. Everybody is happy to see eSports in television. When you can see some trailers about V-WTCC on Eurosport - no one cares, maybe because no one knows ;).
For more information: www.v-wtcc.com - i don't want to explain V-WTCC to you ;)
And there is the point. We actually need more news for the Internet world, about Sim Racing. People have to know, what Real Racing in eSports is, and not only think about Arcade Games ...

And this is the point I wanted to explain. Sim Racing doesn't have the acceptance in eSports. Only the Arcade Games are played in famous eSports tournaments, by what they are getting more famous in eSports.

Anyway, I am just a Sim Racing fanboy ... :)

true! this might be the biggest problem ;)
Live for Speed, GTR Evolution and rFactor are games you can find in some "smaller" eSports tournaments so far.
I had the hope, that iRacing will become the simulation which regroups them all. But you can't even do private races and organizing league races is still impossible!

Like i said above, when a big eSports Tournament would pick one of the sims. I guess every Sim-Racing player, who is interested in eSports, would play this game then. If players and developers can't regroup the sims, maybe the "eSports Tournament Organizers" can do it!

but there are still a lot of ppl believing nfs is one of the most realistic games they played so far ;)
and the most tournaments claim need for speed to be a simulation, when they talk about real racing ... and when you see the video - it's just crashing ;)

U still need to practice racing in that way and keep Ur nerves down, do stable laps and keep Ur driving line - everything U have to do in any other racing games. The thing that differs NFS from other games is only the physics model :)

It's nice to get your counter-arguments!
i guess it will be a never ending discussion ...
-> sim racing vs. arcade racing

it depends on what you like more, but all I wanted to archive is starting a discussion about this topic, what worked so far AND to make ppl think about racing in eSports. Sim Racing definitely needs more acceptance. I like both kind of racing, but arcade is the only thing you can see in bigger eSports tournaments. And be honest, aren't you interested in watching some realistic races @ WCG / SEC / ESWC and whereever too? ;)

//sry for doublepost, but the sk side screwed up my first comment :)

I would compete myself, I love games like rFactor for example :) I also played some LFS, but it's too much different from NFS and if I want to keep a competetive level i have to choose one game. With simracing having place in professional tournaments the chose would be much wider :)

But, from the other side, simracing games have their own, closed tournaments with prizes far more attractive than ANY other gaming event in any other game... Even Counter-Strike players don't win real sportscars, the only one who has was Fatal1ty back in 2003 I guess - but that was Ford Focus! :D

and imo, we have to get those closed tournaments more into eSports to push both kinds of Racing Games (arcade and simracing)!

I personally don't believe that anyone would make an NFS tournament with real sportscar as a prize :) This game is not THAT well supported :)

www.lfs.net
you can download the demo!

If U could translate the text to English it would be good... I don't know German that well :D