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The Rise of 5v5 Melee Zerg, Teaming up with Serennia
With the rise of mage/warlock/druid centric teams, such as the popular "Euro Comp" and the "TSG Comp" (Warrior/Paladin alternative), a counter to these new caster-centric teams has been born in the "Melee Zerg". I recently have been playing 5v5 a lot with Serennia in different comps, he invented a new comp that makes these new "Euro Comp" and "TSG Comp" teams easy to deal with.
By Brendan 'trance' C
Mar 4, 2008 23:30
With the rise of mage/warlock/druid centric teams, such as the popular "Euro Comp" and the "TSG Comp" (Warrior/Paladin alternative), a counter to these new caster-centric teams has been born in the "Melee Zerg". I recently have been playing 5v5 a lot with Serennia in different comps, he invented a new comp that makes these new "Euro Comp" and "TSG Comp" teams easy to deal with.When Avada Kedavra won the 5v5 Cyclone tournament with their Rogue/Druid/Mage/Warlock/Priest aka the "Euro Comp", the comp became as popular as writing about Britney Spears in magazines. This comp was an answer to the 2345/2346 comps that dominated season 2 and gave rogues/druids a place in the 5v5 bracket.
When I transferred to Kil'Jaeden, I found myself teaming up with Serennia. The warrior all-star that placed #1 in all 3 brackets in BG9 at one point definitely has a desire and drive to separate himself from all other players. He made popular the double-melee team of Warrior/Rogue/Druid with Zecks of MoB Gaming and Secretive, becoming one of the first "true counter" to the now common RMP(Rogue/Mage/Priest) that his own ex-teammate Zecks made popular. He again broke new barriers by making the Balance/Resto Druid spec effective in 2v2 and also in 5v5. One may question his social genius, but he does have a knack for being a trend setter in arena.
Before we started playing the tri-melee team, he thought of a variant of Pandemic's Double Felguard Warlock team with replacing a Paladin with a Resto Shaman. This team failed to live up to expectations, seemingly would have worked but we could not find a suitable Resto Shaman capable of making the combo effective(Being the Resto shaman needed Illidan gear and Shaman skills similar to the infamous "Gc"). Serennia started brewing ideas for his next combo and when he came to me with it, almost no one thought it would work as effectively as it has.
His next incarnation was utilizing a very unique rogue on our server named "Vaux". Vaux is a Gladiator Human Rogue that also wields both of Illidan's Warglaives. There probably isn't a rogue in the entire battlegroup that is both geared and talented as Vaux, which makes him very viable to this team. I believe a slightly-less geared rogue might be just as effective, but seems doubtful that it will be as effective. Next, was finding a 3rd melee that could complement his Warrior and Vaux. We found an enhancement shaman that was geared with full PvP gear with crit gems/items but had never even broke the 1700 rating mark. Now the team's core was set, and asking two healers to complement the core of the team was easy. Another luxury this team got was getting services from Zilea, a paladin with the best gear available and experience in all levels of arena(He's also a popular blogger on gameriot, in which he focuses on the demise of Paladins in arena and the rise of Druids. Check it out here).
The Team started out using a Paladin/Priest healers and also tried Paladin/Druid, but Serennia insisted that the Paladin/Priest variant was better being that the double-dispel and Pain Suppression seemed more effective in the situations the comp has to deal with. Being there's no reliable form of CC on this team but instead having insane amounts of sustained damage. Against most comps, the opponent only has one attempt to burst only before one of their members drops. This is why Pain Suppression is extremely viable and can be teamed with the enhancement shaman's Shamanistic Rage(Another 30% reduction in incoming damage) plus double offensive and defensive dispel. The druid variant can be successful as well if the cyclone is used offensively to stop opposing heals and end the match right away, but this hasn't been completely field tested yet.
Serennia's warrior is spec'd specifically for burst damage as well, being he is sword/flurry. We learned that splitting dps opposed to "zerging" one target is a better strategy, putting the Shaman/Warrior on one target and the rogue on his own. This shuts down two casters, making teams like "Euro Comp" pretty ineffective when two of their casters are locked down. A hunter variant might be a counter to this comp, but I don't think any team has developed an effective strategy versus us.
Here's a screenshot to show how fast these games go versus most teams, even with what seems to be a strong composition versus us in Warrior/Shaman/Hunter/Paladin/Priest(Not to take anything away from CLC, whom I give the utmost respect to because I think each one of their players is a hero to their class, "there's no counter-comping in 5s" right?): here.
We also managed to take down the previously ranked #4 "Emo Hallucinations" from Sen'jin and Glickz/Hafu's version of the TSG comp named "Orz Orz Orz Orz Orz" for around 140 points. Also went undefeated against every "Euro Comp" we faced so far, and it felt Euro Comp was slightly easier to deal with than the "TSG Comp" as well.
While Jasi from gameriot recently posted his rant about this team here, it certainly is not the only counter to 2345/2346 and Euro Comps running right now.
I was running 2345/2346 with Eminence on Blackrock when we ran into a triple-healer drain team, a composition made popular by "Team Asia" featuring Unstoppable from the CGS 2v2 tournament. Trying to fight this team was one of the most frustrating times in arena I've ever experienced. The combo consisted of Hunter/SLSL Warlock/Resto Druid/Disc Priest/Resto Shaman(with Illidan gear) and focused on draining all the casters and pushing back dps. With three classes that can drain and three classes spec'd to heal, the only chance of winning was getting lucky in burst and hoped a healer would forget to do his job. This team is appropriately named: DRAIN TRAIN CHOO CHOO and ran a warrior variant as well, but I don't believe was effective as the Warlock/Hunter version.
Serennia will have his own write-up and fraps on the "melee zerg" composition/team soon, stay tuned for that.
When I transferred to Kil'Jaeden, I found myself teaming up with Serennia. The warrior all-star that placed #1 in all 3 brackets in BG9 at one point definitely has a desire and drive to separate himself from all other players. He made popular the double-melee team of Warrior/Rogue/Druid with Zecks of MoB Gaming and Secretive, becoming one of the first "true counter" to the now common RMP(Rogue/Mage/Priest) that his own ex-teammate Zecks made popular. He again broke new barriers by making the Balance/Resto Druid spec effective in 2v2 and also in 5v5. One may question his social genius, but he does have a knack for being a trend setter in arena.
Before we started playing the tri-melee team, he thought of a variant of Pandemic's Double Felguard Warlock team with replacing a Paladin with a Resto Shaman. This team failed to live up to expectations, seemingly would have worked but we could not find a suitable Resto Shaman capable of making the combo effective(Being the Resto shaman needed Illidan gear and Shaman skills similar to the infamous "Gc"). Serennia started brewing ideas for his next combo and when he came to me with it, almost no one thought it would work as effectively as it has.
His next incarnation was utilizing a very unique rogue on our server named "Vaux". Vaux is a Gladiator Human Rogue that also wields both of Illidan's Warglaives. There probably isn't a rogue in the entire battlegroup that is both geared and talented as Vaux, which makes him very viable to this team. I believe a slightly-less geared rogue might be just as effective, but seems doubtful that it will be as effective. Next, was finding a 3rd melee that could complement his Warrior and Vaux. We found an enhancement shaman that was geared with full PvP gear with crit gems/items but had never even broke the 1700 rating mark. Now the team's core was set, and asking two healers to complement the core of the team was easy. Another luxury this team got was getting services from Zilea, a paladin with the best gear available and experience in all levels of arena(He's also a popular blogger on gameriot, in which he focuses on the demise of Paladins in arena and the rise of Druids. Check it out here).
The Team started out using a Paladin/Priest healers and also tried Paladin/Druid, but Serennia insisted that the Paladin/Priest variant was better being that the double-dispel and Pain Suppression seemed more effective in the situations the comp has to deal with. Being there's no reliable form of CC on this team but instead having insane amounts of sustained damage. Against most comps, the opponent only has one attempt to burst only before one of their members drops. This is why Pain Suppression is extremely viable and can be teamed with the enhancement shaman's Shamanistic Rage(Another 30% reduction in incoming damage) plus double offensive and defensive dispel. The druid variant can be successful as well if the cyclone is used offensively to stop opposing heals and end the match right away, but this hasn't been completely field tested yet.
Serennia's warrior is spec'd specifically for burst damage as well, being he is sword/flurry. We learned that splitting dps opposed to "zerging" one target is a better strategy, putting the Shaman/Warrior on one target and the rogue on his own. This shuts down two casters, making teams like "Euro Comp" pretty ineffective when two of their casters are locked down. A hunter variant might be a counter to this comp, but I don't think any team has developed an effective strategy versus us.
Here's a screenshot to show how fast these games go versus most teams, even with what seems to be a strong composition versus us in Warrior/Shaman/Hunter/Paladin/Priest(Not to take anything away from CLC, whom I give the utmost respect to because I think each one of their players is a hero to their class, "there's no counter-comping in 5s" right?): here.
We also managed to take down the previously ranked #4 "Emo Hallucinations" from Sen'jin and Glickz/Hafu's version of the TSG comp named "Orz Orz Orz Orz Orz" for around 140 points. Also went undefeated against every "Euro Comp" we faced so far, and it felt Euro Comp was slightly easier to deal with than the "TSG Comp" as well.
While Jasi from gameriot recently posted his rant about this team here, it certainly is not the only counter to 2345/2346 and Euro Comps running right now.
I was running 2345/2346 with Eminence on Blackrock when we ran into a triple-healer drain team, a composition made popular by "Team Asia" featuring Unstoppable from the CGS 2v2 tournament. Trying to fight this team was one of the most frustrating times in arena I've ever experienced. The combo consisted of Hunter/SLSL Warlock/Resto Druid/Disc Priest/Resto Shaman(with Illidan gear) and focused on draining all the casters and pushing back dps. With three classes that can drain and three classes spec'd to heal, the only chance of winning was getting lucky in burst and hoped a healer would forget to do his job. This team is appropriately named: DRAIN TRAIN CHOO CHOO and ran a warrior variant as well, but I don't believe was effective as the Warlock/Hunter version.
Serennia will have his own write-up and fraps on the "melee zerg" composition/team soon, stay tuned for that.
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The problem is that back then the hunter mage combo was a lot more popular than the warlock of today. We used to be more than a match for warlock teams but fighting mage hunter teams was like punching yourself in the face over and over. There's not too much that is new, its just as certain things become popular the counter comp has to rise up too.
I don't doubt, however, that against most teams playing with a rogue in these melee-zerg teams is a lot more effective for locking down two different targets. Especially a ShS rogue, who is practically unkiteable these days, and unburstable.
But I digress; 5v5 has become a poo bracket, too.
My favorite matchups are still 2345 mirrors and Euro Comp mirrors, there's actually room to showcase some skill against your opponents.
I've personally played wpp/Mage/Warlock mostly throughout S2 being at a rating of around 2400~ish, and I found mirror-matching those very enjoyable, too. :}
Or well, I think they play on both teams though I'm not entirely sure.
However, I for one would hate to not play with the people I'm currently playing with, *just* to have an advantage/guaranteed win over another team who is somewhat dominant in the meta-game.
I bet the same goes for CLC, whom I consider to be amazing players as well.
Should be the closest you can get with WoW towards being skill-based.
forgot to mention we sometimes switched priest with resto shaman... which was somewhat better back then, due to nature of priests being squishie as hell in s1
serennia please be an usual poster here in sk! :P
During season 1 I played a very similar makeup either running hunter feral warrior, hunter feral rogue or feral rogue warrior and back then the rogue was the main weakness of the setup simply because locking down a rogue by sitting a warrior on him for an entire game is so effective.
Now with shadowstep though the situation should be quite different.
It's going to be nice seeing some teams running the Power Trip comp again though. Mage hunter warrior should provide a good challenge to a zerg like that allthough with your paladin in pve gear it might not even be enough :)
A rogue even as shadowstep requires a pretty high amount of maintenance, a hunter however is capable of holding his own quite nicely and can even avoid cc's with properly timed feigns.
That coupled with the fact that your enhancement shaman also requires alot of attention from you makes the hunter a slightly better choice in my eyes.
With that said though, most good mages these days still get pretty significant amounts of damage out despite of a hunter baby sitting them. Being able to instantly kill water elementals is huge though and greatly reduces the mages damage.
Another factor that needs to be taken into account is how relatively easy a hunter is to kill compared to a rogue for caster centric teams but then again the enhancement shaman is even easier to kill so I guess it's unlikely that the hunter becomes a primary target.
removing the enh shammy would work i guess.
would try it myself but finding an good hunter is tricky on my server
I want to see fraps...wonder if this is as facerollin' as Wr/Rog/Dru.
It certainly has its strengths, specifically against low CC teams with an easily trained target (hello, 2346?) and the potential to instantly gib just about anything with no setup time is nice, but it suffers from some appalling weaknesses that really prevent it from being absolutely top notch. A hunter being on the opposing team is a nearly insurmountable obstacle to winning, and with such a change in how 5v5 has been running lately, I'm sure more and more hunters will learn to play and start showing up in higher brackets.
A hunter and mage together is essentially an automatic loss as well, asides from some extremely lucky RNG gibs, it's simply impossible to get any respectable DPS on any target. The downshot of being denied DPS time, is that hitting a target hard is your primary method for dealing with priests. When you fail to deal enough damage to force a priest into healing, the game is already over to mana burns since there's literally no other way to shut them down with this team.
I'm sure wearing tons of PvE gear gets over a lot of the psuedo-weaknesses of this matrix, but having all the warglaives in the world isn't going to get you out of frost traps and novas.
and you tell me you want to play with 3 melees? sorry but talking out of experience, we also played with a feral druid instead of mage sometimes in s1 aka having 3 melees, even back then it sucked and it will suck even more seeing how this game has evolved into countercomping with heavy cc.
2345 is completely terrible vs Euro Comp/TSG.. 2346 has a chance of winning atleast, maybe you should find a hunter and switch him in because Mage/Hunter teams similar to Pandemic's season 1 combo are very good vs euro comp/TSG/triple-melee.
We're playing with a pretty bad paladin nowadays, but we've been running this since it's one of the only things that you can make work with an enhancement shaman. It really is a countercomp rollercoaster, if you see a lot of warlocks, you win. If you see a lot of hunters... not so much.
and @raphiron, you are funny ...
http://www.gametube.org/htmlVideo.jsp?id=O/3nxP6Adv9C_zQbT3a6idf2lYmA=
(notice the pvprank on the POV mage)